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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

It. Are you someone who's been feeling a little bit burnout? Is that something that you've been experiencing? I've definitely heard from listeners that this is something that resonates with them and they wanted more on it, more specific, applicable things they can do to combat it. This is why we have a two part series. It started last week with episode 57 and continues this week. We laid the groundwork and started talking about the stress cycle. Just getting that down and implementing some of the strategies that we offered will really help. But this week we dive even deeper. We talk more about the other things you can do, and you might be surprised how many layers there are. Be sure to recommend this episode to someone you care about that you think can benefit from this too. We have a lot of examples, and I'm sure some of this will resonate. Welcome to the Grit Show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. Matt McKinnon is back for our second conversation in our series, talking about burnout. In case you didn't hear the last one, matt has his master's in social work and 15 years of experience in home visiting. He's currently working in hospice, which, in case we didn't cover that in very much depth or you haven't heard of it previously, is supporting patients and their families as they navigate terminal illness and the end stages of life. Eight years in, that is certainly a qualifier to be discussing burnout. Matt is also one of the most insightful friends I have, which is something you may be aware of if you did tune in and hear our first episode. So this is why he is someone I have invited to join us for this conversation in episode 57. When we started this, he focused a lot on completing the stress cycle, which is something that I found very interesting as I was learning more about burnout and an important element of preventing encountering burnout. And today we're going to go a little bit more into depth around what burnout is, our thoughts on what that is currently, and some other ideas about addressing it. So welcome, Matt. Thank you for being here again with us.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:02:33

Thank you for having me back. I appreciate it. And thank you for your kind intro.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:38

Yes, exactly. It was funny. I was contemplating that a little bit since our last recording about how hospice if you think about people who are going to get burnt out and think about doing work where the outcomes are very complicated, and working with families that are dealing with end of life is just a complicated thing to deal with. And you deal with that every day, multiple times a day, with multiple families and patients. And so when people think about what they can get burnt out about, that seems like that'd be a career where that's a very common thing.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:03:12

Yeah just and I think in healthcare in general these days too, it's sort of a topic of discussion and a concern and in my specific workplace and environment there are a lot of challenges, it can be difficult and also we certainly meet and work with wonderful families and patients at a very difficult time.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:33

ause Herbert Freudenberger in: 1975

Matt McKinnon [: 00:04:57

Absolutely.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:58

So that makes sense why I'm glad you're here because I feel like your career as well as your experiences puts you in a unique position to be an expert on this topic, whether you want to be or not.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:05:09

And I appreciate being here and talking about this and kind of sharing and when you mentioned there's so many moving parts and things that not only in my work but just in life that we can't control as much as we try and may want to. And a lot of my work is like very process focused and things change rapidly. And so kind of that decreased sense of accomplishment when there's so much process involved and things can change fast and outcomes can look different, it can be a lot. So I appreciate the conversation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:43

Yeah. And I think that in general, our society, I feel like things have changed in the last five years. The last ten years. I still remember when I did not have my email on my cell phone, and that feels like a beautiful time. It felt like I was less available and there was more demarcation of when work was and when personal life was. And it feels like part of burnout to me. I feel like it's like that when your tire gets stuck in the snow or when it gets stuck in the mud, it's because it keeps spinning in the same place and it burns that hole so you can no longer get traction. And it feels like that repetitive motion of the exact same thing and fast succession without changing position, without doing things different, without giving it rest, is what causes that to happen. That's my mental image for burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:06:33

Yeah. That's a very good visual, I think.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:35

Yeah. And it feels like the more we have these demands on ourselves all the time, the more available we are in our society all the time, that it feels like burnout is just more inevitable. And having that inability to get traction because the fact we're just rubbing things raw because we keep hitting the same spots continually is part of that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:06:55

Yeah. And when you mentioned things five years ago, ten years ago, looking so different, and the technology and demands increasing over time. I remember when I was at PSU social work school there, I had an instructor who talked about mental health and difficulties around the pace of life and the pace of life increasing and things moving so fast and expectations being constant. Twenty four seven that can have an impact on our overall health and wellness. And I remember when they said that, it kind of hit me just thinking about pace of life as having a real impact on our overall health, wellness, and it's different for everyone, of course. However yeah, the increasing demands and the technology with all the benefits of different things, it can be real hard also.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:41

And that's part of the conversation that we had when we had Marcy Rader come on our show. Episode 24 is when she was with us, and she talked a lot about the need to have those parameters around technology and the expectations and putting that onus really on managers at businesses and people like that to have. Even if you're going to send after our emails that you set this ability to program on your computer that they don't go in until the next morning, Because as the boss, as the supervisor, as the manager, you're setting that precedent. And so, ideally, you're having boundaries so that you're not working after hours and sending emails after hours.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:08:24

Yes, ideally.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:25

Ideally, ideally. But if you are going to do that, that you have that respect for the people that you supervise and manage because we do all get our emails on our phone now, we do have that constant access. So there needs to be these conversations in workplaces that kind of help to demarcate when is work? When isn't work? Because when you have it be 24/7 availability, that is when you have that picture of that spinning tire that just makes it so that you just wreck everything and burn everything out.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:08:54

Yeah, and hard to show up the way like I know I want to with loved ones, family, friends, just in my life and in my work. Hard to show up well when we're just spinning like your visual with tire and just getting exhausted and burned out and that top down like within our workplaces, having some parameters top down. So it'd be very important to sort of show staff like yes, our work is important and yes, there's a lot of demands. However, we got to build in boundaries to be able to keep showing up to do what we do and ideally do it as well as we can.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:30

h, well, I'll take a break at: 02:00

Matt McKinnon [: 00:10:31

Right. It doesn't even out.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:35

Yeah, it doesn't even out. And I think that having that piece of us understanding, like, we still need to have boundaries, and it's a lot harder to have them when we don't go into the office and have this is when I start, this is when I end, and this is where we go. And we think it's to our advantage that I can still go on vacation and have my phone with me and still be available for work so that I'm not stressed when I get back. But then you don't get refreshed.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:10:57

You don't get an actual vacation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:00

Yeah. When I went to Morocco, it was amazing because it required me going international where they weren't going to have Internet service, not bringing my computer with me because I was going international and not being available to my family, not being available to work and to do that. And it was really the most unplugged and the most beneficial vacation I'd had in a long time. I missed my sweetheart. I didn't have my sweetheart when I planned the vacation, of course, so I wasn't, like, needing to stay in touch with we weren't engaged when I went on the trip yet, but we were living together and I went on the trip, so I definitely missed him. And it was hard to not be able to be in touch with him when I was gone. But it was very intentional when I booked that trip that I had a job and had a thing where I wanted to be very unplugged and knew myself and knew my work and stuff enough that I needed to be international. Right. Didn't have Internet, didn't bring my computer to be able to unplug that much. So it was probably the first time I hadn't traveled with a computer and my phone. I was international, so I only had Internet at some of the hotels, and that was the only time I could even check out anything. And I did not check work when I was gone for that time. And it was really nice. And I was in the Sahara for part of it. Definitely didn't have Internet. I was riding camels in the Sahara. So it required that much to be able to unplug. But I came back so much more refreshed because I took that complete break. And so I think that as we talk about solutions, rest is one of them. But you need to actually question, are you really resting? Are you completely unplugging from work and unplugging from the stressors to be able to care for yourself and to be able to refresh? So when you're feeling burned out, you need to replenish. But are you giving yourself the ability to actually remove yourself from the things that are causing the stress to actually be able to refresh? Because in our society, there's constantly I know when we've talked before about the ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:12:59

Yeah, all the little alerts and buzzes and all the things that can bring our focus somewhere else and sort of the we were talking about this, and you said they kind of can activate us. And I know that's the response oftentimes that I kind of am noticing internally of feeling activated or responsible to whatever the ding or the buzz or the new information coming in is. It is like there's freedom with the technology and working anywhere and everywhere and whatever and it's so hard, at least for me, to draw firm boundaries between. This is where I'm home, this is where I do things in my private life, this is where I work, this is where I take good care of myself and do things. This is where I go to take care of my work responsibilities and things and to have a way to separate that out. When there is the freedom to do things anywhere and everywhere, it's even more important for me to figure out what my boundaries are, to set strong boundaries and to stick to them and shut things off, like you're saying, which is a struggle for me. I'm working on it. And also, having an actual break on days off or on a vacation means I get rest, I get rejuvenated, I show up better in my life after the break, after the rest, after the vacation. And ideally, that's my goal. Like, I want to show up well and I need rest. I need a break. I can't have everything bleeding into everything and think I'm not going to get burnt out.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:30

Yeah. When's the last time you turned off your cell phone?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:14:34

I couldn't tell you. we were talking About this last time.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:37

I can't tell you the last time I turned mine off either.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:14:41

It's on all the time and my work got stuff. Like, even when I'm off, I just leave it on the counter charging on because it's just always on and I need to shut it off. And I do it's my responsibility to take those steps and know what my boundaries are and stick to them and deal with. For me, the discomfort of knowing my work stuff is off and there's still all this information coming in and things I'm going to go back to when I go back to work or after the vacation and just deal. With the fact that that causes me discomfort because the break is going to help me way more than the constantly being tuned in to all the stuff that's coming in 24/7

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:23

well, that's the other piece that we touched on too, is the concept that we have been taught there's so much work to done. Have I done enough work that I can take a break? Have I gotten enough done that I can finally take a break? Have I written enough chapters when we were in college? Have I written enough of the paper? Have I done enough research? Have I worked hard enough? Have I gotten enough of my work done that I can finally take a break?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:15:46

When do you deserve a break?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:47

Exactly when it's exactly the opposite. Like, have I rested enough? Have I taken care of myself enough that I'm able to give myself fully to my work? Am I able to give myself fully to this project that's in front of me? Have I taken care of myself enough that I can get back to this? And that's how we should be looking at it. But do we? No, I don't.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:16:11

I don't. Enough. I need to do that more.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:14

Yes, I'm trying to do. And I swear to you, the last couple of days, that has been more of my lens. And the last couple of days, I have been so much more productive than I have been in a long time because that has been more of my lens. And that goes back to the intentionality, right? So that when we're taking a break that we actually like, I am taking this break because I need this break. I want this break. And this break is what I deserve and need so that I can be my best self and show up and do the best work. And because I'm taking this break, I'm going to do more work and do better. These thoughts aren't necessarily true. And they dance around and do whatever they want. And we're the ones that need to kind of manage our monkeys and get them in line to be like just because I've always been told and thought that I have to deserve a break, that's not true. I deserve a break because my body needs a break and I'm tired. And if I don't take this break, I'm not going to do as good of work. And I need to believe that and go back and revisit when I've done that. Which, by the way, everyone the only reason I'm able to say this, because I told one of my clients this. I made them think this and gave them examples of this, which reminded me, oh, wait, I work that way too. And me, you learn by teaching me, telling someone else, like, you need to take more breaks, you need to step away. You need to rest better. It's like, oh, wait, that is true. I was speaking truth.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:17:39

Learning is learning, however we do it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:42

Exactly. And I should listen to myself sometimes. I might be thinking wisely about things, but that's how we help to prevent the burnout, is that we actually take those breaks and actually take care of ourselves so that we can actually give back and do the things we need to get done. And that also goes into you had a really interesting piece around being intentional and what things can actually help us. I think we might have talked about the stress cycle even that if you're intentional, that whatever you're doing to take care of yourself is taking care of yourself. If you're intentionally recognizing that me sitting and watching this TV show that I like, me listening to this music, me playing this video game if you're doing it in the name of self maintenance, in the name of taking care of yourself in the name of processing in the name of that if you put it in that category, it goes in that category.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:35

Well, yeah, when we talked about how if I get through the stressor, whatever it is, traffic, work stuff, whatever it may be. I'm through that part. I also got to unwind my mind body physiologically, like get through the traffic, get home and then take a pause. I think some of the examples from the book were like stand in the driveway and do some deep breathing, get centered in my body, do some noticing of my muscles, like kind of the tensing and releasing, like something that I'm doing where my awareness is I'm doing this after I get through the stressor. So when I think about intentionality, that's the piece and it can be a lot of the things we talked about, like watching something, connecting with friends, physical activity, creative expression, all those things. And the intention of doing those things is to unwind from going through whatever the stressor was.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:32

And those are things that can help buffer us and protect us without getting burnout. Actually do that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:38

And lots of different things we can all do, like totally individual because we're all different. Lots of options and possibilities.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:47

Yes, exactly. Those are the things we need to put our effort into is figuring out what for us is something that we find helpful, but being aware and intentional and not beating ourselves up when we go to do that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:58

Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Knowing that this is what I need, this is my maintenance, this is my healthy activity, healthy behavior, to be able to show up in the evening with loved ones or something like that. Or show up the next day for work, whatever it is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:13

Yes. Imagine having it be the self maintenance stuff. Just be a buzword that needs to actually be something we're intentional and enjoying as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:20:21

Yeah. And deserving knowing we deserve to rejuvenate.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:26

Recover from whatever stressors are. So one of the other ways we talked about to help us the solutions to combat our stressors and our burnout is kind of this ability for us to focus on the gains and how far we've come instead of to constantly be focusing on what we haven't done, what we haven't accomplished, and be able to look at what we have done and what we have accomplished as a way to kind of shift our focus and to kind of adjust the goals. And I think that adjusting the goals and what we look at is different. So for you with your work, like we mentioned, that when working in hospice, you can't have a goal, the patient gets better because that's not the body of your work. So what type of things do you use with your work to help you feel like you're actually trying to have that increase your sense of accomplishment? What type of things are you able to focus on to kind of help you look at the gains and what you're actually accomplishing?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:21:21

Yeah, I think it's sort of looking at things moment to moment throughout the day as they often change throughout the day. Different expectations, different things need attention. And just to show up fully and taking one thing at a time and focusing on the one thing that's in front of me and doing whatever I can in the situation to offer information, resources, support, like within my social worker scope. And just the thought that this is right now what needs my attention. Letting go of outcome expectation, just like really listening to whatever the need or support is, it's part of my role and just working to show up for that and offer support the best that I can and then moving to whatever the next thing may be. And in that way I think so much of my work is process. However, I do notice for myself that can feel like an outcome because in the moment it's addressing what's right in front of me to the point that there's some kind of resolution in that moment or with information resources support that's needed and then being able to go to the next thing for the day and try to show up the same way. And some days it can be multiple things, other days it's one thing that needs the attention of our team, all the folks that I work with or needs my attention. Things just can take a long time with resources and trying to line things up to help families and patients. And so some days it's like I've spent hours and hours on kind of one thing and if that's what is needed in the moment, then that's what it is. And so I think just adjusting day to day that everything's going to look different and I can show up the best possible address what's in front of me, move to the next thing and sometimes I move to the next thing the next day. Because what was needed in that moment, that day was a lot of time involved and that's just the way it is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:26

So are you able to give yourself that credit and focus on that gain? And to be able to say like today I was really present for three families and I really made sure that these two families got their needs met and this client got into where they needed to be. And are you able to focus on what you do accomplish on a regular basis?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:23:44

Yeah, over time I've gotten better at that. Nice, that sort of acknowledgment or kind of feeling that way, not every day. However, I think I've gotten better at noticing the gains, noticing that what was needed in the moment was addressed. And over time I've gotten more like my reframing and kind of looking at things that way. I've been better at doing that and it's been supportive for me to reframe it that way. And it's kind of just true.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:13

Yeah, it's very true.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:24:15

It's not just hearing day to day work. Things can change fast and needs change and circumstances change. And so the reframing and kind of convincing myself of the gains is part of it, and it's also kind of just true. That's how it goes sometimes with the nature of, I guess of my work.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:34

Yeah, I'm getting better at actually writing down at the end of the day as part of my transition of like, this is what I've actually accomplished, solidifies it. And that's partially trying to actually close my day as well, to actually write down this is what I've done. Because sometimes I can't even name two days later what I accomplished this week because I'm just so full of things that need to get done and I have such a focus of where I'm going. And it's funny because people will say, oh, you're a perfectionist. I'm like, no I'm not. If you saw the 3 million things I've let go of, you would not even say that to me. I'm letting go of things all the time. But I have really big goals. I have huge things I'm trying to accomplish and there's always so much more to do. And I feel like people don't get that. My partner is amazing at him saying like, people don't understand all the things you do. I don't even understand almost every good idea. Watch this. So I just start writing down so I can be like, wow, I did a lot and I have accomplished a lot. Instead of being like, oh, I still wanted to do this, I still wanted to do this, I'd hope to accomplish this, I wanted to get this done. And really, it's just not humanly possible. And so the triaging and prioritizing and doing that is important, but at the same time, there's so much I do get done and I don't spend enough time acknowledging that. So I think that trying to actually catalog that and writing it down is very helpful so that you can actually go back and look at that. And that's part of with the folks that I coach, that they're in middle management positions where they're the only people that do what they do, not a lot of other people do that. And so their supervisor is not somebody who's in the weeds with them and they all do different things. And so for them to be able to do a regular tracking of what they do so that when they walk into their meetings with their supervisor, they're informing their supervisor what they do. I think that's a mistake I've made in my career, is I'm so busy doing the work that I'm not tooting my own horn and saying, look what I accomplished. Look at everything I've done. I'm just out there doing it. And the people I'm doing it for are well aware of everything that I'm accomplishing and getting done. And my partners, the community, are amazed at everything I get done. But the people that oversee the things, they have no understanding or clue because I'm so fast doing it. I don't. Have time to go back and say, look, everything I've done. I was also the person that never turned in my reimbursements because I was too busy. It's not about me getting this little bit of money back. I'm too busy doing the work. So those are the things that moved to the bottom of my pile. So it's important for you to actually take stock, I think. So if you're someone that doesn't see that again, working perfectionism, like letting go of doing everything perfect all the time is one stage of that. But even if you're doing that, you can still be so focused on everything you wish you could do everything you want to do that you saying, oh, look, I've done all of these things, is an important thing for you to be able to do as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:27:29

I love the idea of writing it down because that is sort of documenting for yourself and if needed someone else.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:35

If needed someone else.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:27:37

And it's a way to focus on the gains. And we're all different. Right. But I know for me, the process of writing something out and then having that visual to look at not only that day, but maybe the next day and the day after, reflect on the week, to have it really documented to me sounds like a great practice. I like that a lot. I think I'm going to steal that because I don't do that. I need to start doing something like that day to day. I'll process or just think kind of that mentally, but I think writing it down and journaling or I think that's a great thought.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:09

Close that day down.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:28:11

Yeah. For my own support. And then if someone else needs to see what I'm doing, then they can see too. I think that's a great idea. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:18

So we've also talked about gratitude a good amount here on the podcast, too. And I feel like that's a really great strategy to help fight against burnout as well as to that reframe of the positives that come out of negative experiences. The way to find that is not to pretend something was good, but to find what you're actually grateful for in that. And so if we look at a negative experience so, for instance, my house was under contract, very excited that my house was sold and being taken care of, and then it fell through. But the gratitude of that is that I had more time for my transition and movement to find a place where we're moving to, for us to live in. Because if we would have moved on the timeline of that first contract, I would be homeless in Bend. I'd be living in a trailer in Bend right now, which was not ideal. So instead we found a place to live in. And so that's finding the gratitude. So that's even more than just reframing. But it's not, it's like generally finding the thing that you are grateful for that was part of that. That kind of makes it a different way of looking at things. So I think the gratitude is something that can help adjust and figure that piece out as well. So I think that's something that we can definitely utilize as a tool when we're trying to integrate more ways to kind of combat burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:29:36

I think in talking about this before with my work, thinking about the work and the gratitude that the patients and the families that we work with allow us to be there and to be in their homes or wherever they live and allow us to do what we do and offer support. I reflect a lot about that gratitude, the grateful feeling of that's. A part of my work also is that there's the very difficult things and also there's the meeting really wonderful families and patients at a very difficult time. And they're allowing us as a team, as social workers, nurses, all folks, spiritual care, personal care folks, volunteers, to be with them at a really hard time also, and learning from all the folks that I meet through my work and all the families and the patients. And so a lot of gratitude for sure, for that along with the difficult parts. Right. But I definitely like thinking about the gratitude and the gains. I know for me is super helpful.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:43

Yeah, it always feels like there's a little piece. So in the book, we didn't reference it this time, but burnout. Burnout, burnout. Burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:50

5 burnouts

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:51

5 Burnout. The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily and Amelia Nagoski is the book that we both read and they actually talk a little bit more about finding meaning and purpose and how that can be a buttfer against burnout. And I think that's actually when you talked about that purpose, you're grateful for being there as part of that process for families and be able to witness that and that piece. But I feel that could almost be looking at purpose and meaning a little bit too. So if you're interested in that component as part of it, I think that's something that if you looked at the book, you can get even more out of. We're not going to tackle with that as much because we only have so much time. But I think that that's definitely part of that as well and important piece. So I think that, yes, focusing on the gains, looking at gratitude, acknowledging that you need rest and taking the rest, and actually figuring out what that really means to unplug practicing turning off your computer and turning off your phone so you could practice turning yourself off could be the first stage in that. Right.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:53

Be less activated. 24/7

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:57

yes, exactly. And then the focus on the gains, which is like kind of redefining winning sometimes as well. It's like adjusting your goalposts to be like what you're actually gaining, I think, are the things that are kind of important that can be solutions for you. To help address some of the burnout as well as the whole episode that we talked about previously in episode 57 that was really just getting into depth about unlocking the stress cycle and I feel like that and adding that self maintenance piece, which I think was a big part of it as well, and making sure that wellness doesn't just become another expectation that fit in.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:32:34

I'm failing at my wellness. Don't want to think that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:37

Exactly which I did find time for a massage last week. Made me very happy.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:32:44

That's great.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:45

Yes, I did fit that in. So I did level up my self maintenance game for something that I really enjoy as part of self maintenance. But that's not something you can fit in every week. So I need to have a way of doing self maintenance that's not dependent on having space for that, so that I can actually feel well and feel cared for and maintained all the time. So those are the type of things that we need to look at ourselves in our schedule, and it's different for everyone. What does that and I feel like the unlocking the stress cycle things that we talked about, the different suggestions are really part of that. So that's definitely if you haven't looked at that in more depth, that's definitely something to look at a little bit more as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:21

Yeah. And figuring out a way to kind of balance all the parts and knowing that they're all equally important, all the ways that I want to show up well, I also got to show up well for myself. I got to balance all the things to keep on going. I really appreciate being here and talking about these things with you both previously and now. It's a lot of good learning for me and helpful to talk about and kind of solidify some of these things as we discuss them. And it's a lot of really helpful learning for me. And now I just need to practice more.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:58

Yes, practice more. Practice more. Exactly. Yes. So as we talk about the wellness not being this expectation that we need to be gentle with ourselves on fitting in self maintenance, we did talk last episode about you doing skateboarding as part of your self maintenance, which I love and appreciate.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:34:18

Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:18

And it has been a week since we recorded our last episode. So what in the last week have you been able to do for your self maintenance?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:34:26

I have taken some neighborhood walks, which is one of my favorite things to do, especially, like, on work days after getting home through traffic and all the things the commute. I've done some good neighborhood walks and then I did a good hike this morning up Powell Butte here in Portland. And it was a great way to start one of my days off from work and kind of disappear out of the city and into big trees and forests and just getting to be at the top of Palbut and look around at all the beautiful mountains and everything awesome about Oregon and just nice to have kind of a peaceful place within the city with a know and it was physical activity getting into nature, connecting with a friend. It's out of my norm. So I think doing something different felt really good too. Skateboarding? Yes, that happens a lot, but yes. So neighborhood walks for sure. And then a hike this morning. And I also know I didn't do enough things. Like there were days I didn't do things that I know I need to do, but those are the things I did this last week. How about you?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:34

So I got a massage this week, which I was very excited about. That was very nice. I also took things off my list. I magically managed to find things I could whittle off my list. That was an important self maintenance thing because my list is very full. So I managed to find things I could take off my list, which was nice. And I practiced more self compassion this week, which I didn't realize I needed to practice. But I think I have been judging myself about my ability to get things done. So part of me having more of that list of what I was getting done, I was actually able to accomplish more by resting more and having more self compassion. And I did rest more, which I have not been good about resting while my partner has been in a different place. Those bleeding hours that we talked about, they've been ridiculous lately because I don't have him to kind of cut my clock off and help me transition. And so I've had more self compassion with me not doing a good job at cutting things off, but then really resting when I'm resting and completely letting myself do that and just understanding I can't do as much as I want to do. And that's going to be what's going to happen. Because even if I choose, what I'm not going to do is better than me just not being able to get it done. So I'm doing better about choosing what I'm not going to do because it's not all going to get done. There are too many things on the list, far too many things.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:03

And that choosing. Like, I would imagine if that were me kind of an empowering feeling to like I'm making these choices as opposed to something I'm just not getting done or feeling like I'm failing at. I'm choosing to take things off the list.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:17

It's not quite empowering yet. No, we're working compassion. We're working through compassion first. That dan aerobic. It's so hard to accept I can't do it all. So yes, I would like to get to the point where it's empowering instead of just being like, I'm still mourning that I can't do it all I'm still in the morning that I can't do it all. Even if I'm choosing what I'm not doing, I'm still mourning that I'm not capable of doing everything I want to do.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:45

Understood. Fair enough. No. And I hear that. I hear that. I think I've been there before. I've been there.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:51

Yeah. It's high expectations and desires. It's just really how it is. But yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:56

Those are lots of good things, though, that you did this week to your own support.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:00

I should write those on my list of accomplishments.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:05

I'm adding Hike Pal Bu to my list because that was kind of a new one for me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:10

Yeah.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:10

Sad to say, but true.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:12

Yeah, not sad at all. Exciting.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:16

Let me reframe that. It's exciting and new.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:20

I love it that you can still have these new experiences at this point in time. I think it's kind of fun to discover things you haven't done yet and haven't experienced.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:29

Absolutely.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:29

Well, that's what I did this week. I took Roby kayaking south of town and believe where we went that it was so quiet and there wasn't you notice I'm not saying where that found someplace there wasn't a lot of other people. Roby was totally shocked by it because we tried to go the place that's a quarter of a mile from our house because we live right by the river on the willamette, because he has not been kayaking on the Willamet. And so we tried to do that. We've oddly, we've gone paddled boarding on the Columbia and gone up there a number of times, but not on the willamette. So we're going to go do that before we move away. And yet it was insanely chaotic, and there was no way that was going to happen, which is like, well, I expected this. I'm like, I didn't. We should have just walked from our house because we would have had to dealt with parking in the chaos, so we could have just put the kayak in a wagon and just walked down there easier. But he was so impressed that we could drive 20 minutes and I found this great place for us. He was very impressed by that. Secret spot. Secret spot. I just love that there's still things that we haven't done or experience. So when we come back to visit Portland, we'll still have these little things. Even though you've been in Portland for a little while, you still have things to do and experience.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:39

Always something new.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:40

Like that was actually yes. Life is full of yes. Yes. I like it. I like it very much. All right, so as we wrap up for our grit wit, what do you think we should give folks as our recommendation? I feel like they should kind of look at one of these solutions you've kind of mentioned and kind of gravitate to one of them that they feel like either the focusing on the gain, redefining winning, or acknowledging the rest and reframing how they look at rest, the self compassion or the gratitude should be like what they should look at. And I wonder if we shouldn't kind of focus on the reframing rest. Should we kind of raise that to the top as we take away as.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:22

Our that's what I'm going to take.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:24

Away because that's a hard one.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:26

Yeah. When you said that earlier yeah. That resonates with me, for sure. And that's a big reframe. That's kind of tipping a lot. Yeah. With all the kind of start asking.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:39

Yourself, have I rested enough? Have I given myself enough rest? Have I taken care of myself enough to start this next activity? Do I need to rest longer? Do I need to sit another minute? Do I need to watch a little more of this show? Do I need to spend a little more time just cuddling with my child? Do I need to spend a little time just sitting and holding hands with my partner? Do I need to go to bed early tonight? Do I need to leave the phone off for another hour? Do I need more of this versus do I need to work longer before I can take a break?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:15

Right. Totally. And that's, for me, the reframing that is super helpful to think about and for me to work on, that's what I'm going to take away, for sure is working on getting comfortable with that reframing and knowing how important rest and that maintenance is. And if I need it, I need it. And it's not about getting a certain amount of things done before I deserve it. It's just part of what I need for my wellness and maintenance.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:43

Yes. And I think part of it too, is actually recognizing after you rested, really rested, noticing your ability to be present and your ability to finish things and get things done so much quicker. Because we don't totally stop. We don't time ourselves to be able to be like, oh, I wrote that description for this thing in five minutes after I properly rested. And it took me 2 hours when I didn't properly rest to write this. So I can rest for an hour, write it in five minutes, and have 55 extra minutes for other things, or I can take 2 hours trying to write this because I'm pushing it through. And then we think that we need 2 hours to do that, right? Yes. And the big thing for me, because you all know that I've written a novel and I've written some short stories and done some stuff. And for my creative space, I know that I need rest to get into my creative space. And that that's the thing that gets disturbed the most. It's so funny that I don't recognize that I also need it for everything else in my life but baby cells. I am shocked by how much I can crank out with my writing when I've actually properly rested. And don't have all the other things and it's so funny if we didn't just recognize how much it's not that oh wow. Today I was able to straighten up the kitchen and it took me ten minutes. It normally takes me 3 hours or five days to clean the kitchen. It's because you actually rested and maintained yourself and took care of yourself this time. That's why it was so much smoother and simpler to clean the kitchen today. It's not that it's magically less dirty and cooking dinner tonight was so much smoother and easier and it only took you that's so funny because energy for it. That is so funny because it really does take me it says in the little recipe cards, because we get the I've mentioned this before that we get the food delivery and it gives you a little card that says it's going to take 25 to 35 minutes to cook, and it takes ruby it'll take me an hour and ten minutes. And I blame it on my ability to focus and my ADHD, whatever else is why I have a hard time and I do better when I just go in and I cook what I want to cook. But part of it when I go in and cook what I want to cook, it's because I'm rested and I want to cook and I go in and cook what I want to cook. And that's why takes me 25 minutes to cook. That versus an hour and ten minutes to cook when I'm not wanting.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:44:16

Do you have the energy to do It

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:44:19

the next time that I'm going to cook one of those if I actually take a break and rest first, see if it actually takes me the amount of time it says on the recipe card versus how much, that would be an interesting test, y'all? That would be an interesting test but I really feel like we don't realize how much extra time it takes us all the time to do things when we are not well rested and are not well oiled and maintained because we're taking care of ourselves and we don't recognize that. And I'm starting to realize that more. I'm starting to practice what I preach.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:44:55

One of the few things that I notice about myself is that if I know I'm well rested, I'm more patient. I notice myself getting less overwhelmed easily, like better focus, more efficient and just moving through the day in somewhat of like a calmer more intentioned way and if I'm tired all that stuff is different.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:45:22

So rest is important?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:45:23

Yeah, absolutely. And those are just the little things I've noticed. I'm sure there's a lot more that good rest would help me with but I know for sure that patience, focus, like if I'm rested I notice a big difference in those things especially with my work.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:45:40

So like when they tell you your phone's glitching so you just need to turn it off because you never do that. Maybe when we're glitching, we need to turn ourselves off. Yes, you all missed this, but earlier we talked about how when I did my work, when we first knew each other, I worked with children and families and young children and how I didn't listen to the work. And I need to take the messages I did with young kids. And some of the messages with young kids is that when they're grouchy, they need to rest. So adults, when you're grouchy, you need to rest. I learned with young kids, I don't apply to adults, but really, it does actually apply to adults. I'm just now recognizing that a lot of it does. A lot of it does. Well, this has been amazing. You have been delightful. Thank you so much. And we already realized earlier when we were chatting, there's probably 20 more things they could chat about. So, Matt, you may have to come back sometime.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:46:28

I would love to. And thank you for having me. I mean, really, I've learned a ton. And it's just wonderful to talk with you. And these are important things to talk about. I'm glad we can talk about them together and share what we learned from the book and just from this conversation. It's been really awesome. So thank you very much.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:46:46

Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us @the.grit.show. And if you aren't already following Authentic Connections podcast network a@37by27, you should definitely be doing that as well. Do don't forget you are the only one of you that this world has got, and that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday. I hope you are too. Bye.