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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

You ever wondered why some people seem naturally confident in relationships and others constantly worry about being rejected or abandoned? What if I told you that that behavior, as well as the reason you micromanage your team at work, may well connect to the same thing, which is whether your caregivers consistently showed up for you when you needed them as a child. Today's guest reveals the fascinating science behind how our earliest relationships became the blueprint for how we lead, love and connect as adults. Think about Michael Scott's desperate need for approval in the office, Miranda Priestley's icy emotional walls in the Devil Wears Prada. These aren't just quirky character traits. Even though they entertained us, they're textbook examples of attachment styles that were formed decades before these characters ever stepped into a boardroom. Whether you're the leader who avoids difficult conversations, the one who needs constant validation, or somewhere in between, today's guest, Dr. Jamie Goff, explains why understanding your attachment style isn't just about psychology. It's a leadership strategy.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:23

She breaks down the three primary patterns that shape how we show up in every relationship, from parenting to managing teams. And she shares the incredible news that you're not stuck with the patterns you inherited. Get ready to see your relationships, your leadership style, and even yourself through a completely different lens. This conversation might just change how you understand the most important connections in your life. It's an amazing jumping off point and I'm so glad you're here for it. Welcome to the Grit Show where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host Shawna Rodrigues and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out out of life. It means a lot that you are here today.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:15

As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:36

You are going to really enjoy our conversation with Dr. Jamie Goff. What I enjoy about her is that she's very holistic in her approach. I love the ways that Dr. Goff has been able to connect with individuals and the difference she's making and I think you are going to get a lot out of what she has to share today. You can read more about her in the show notes, but thank you so much for being with us today, Jamie. I'm grateful to have you here.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:01

Thank you for having me.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:03:02

Shawna, I'm excited for our conversation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:04

I am. And you have accomplished a great feat. You have finished your book and it's going to be published. It comes out. When is it? September.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:03:13

September 9th?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:14

September 9th. Ooh, in a week? In a week. So everyone can pre order it immediately. There'll be a link in the show notes. And so some of what we're talking about is going to connect directly to what's in your book. But I just love the work you're doing and how it connects. Can you talk a little bit more about how you started with your Ph.D. and, and marriage and family therapy and how it's led you to work with organizations and leaders in doing coaching with individuals as a way to make an impact?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:03:42

Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of an interesting story. And sometimes people, when they find out my background, they're like, well, how did you end up, you know, as a director of leadership development and an executive coach? But to me it all makes perfect sense. When I was working on my PhD in couple and family therapy at Michigan State, I was actually part of a research team looking at infant mental health. And we were working with mothers and their infants. So children 2 years old and younger who had been, you know, these infants had been removed from their mother's homes for whatever reason. And we were working with these mothers to try to help them understand how to appropriately connect with their babies. And because what we learn many times is that when you have young mothers and they have infants, they're not, they just don't know, they don't know what to do.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:04:40

They don't know how to care for and connect and what their baby's needs are. So my job in that particular project was to actually provide therapy. So I did therapy with mothers and their infants and it was all about helping them understand how they could respond to their infants in a way that would create security and, and their relationships, how they could be more attuned and responsive to their infants needs. And our goal was reunification. We wanted those infants to be placed back with their mothers because ultimately that's the best outcome for everyone. And so, you know, I was involved in that project also, you know, did some on the research side with that as well. And that's where I first was introduced to attachment theory and attachment therapies. And then later on in my career I actually shifted my focus a bit and I started working primarily with couples in my therapy practice.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:05:36

And in that practice I also, primarily because I thought attachment theory was so powerful, I used attachment based Therapy in my work with couples, emotionally focused couples therapy specifically. And I could see, you know, some of the same types of dynamics between couple relationships as you often see in parent and children, the same dynamics playing out there. And then when I first in my career moved into leadership roles, as I was thinking about myself as a leader and then also observing other leaders I was working with, I thought, well, this is interesting because these same types of dynamics in terms of people's attachment styles, how they show up in their personal relationships, are playing out in their relationships with their teams as leaders. And. And so that's when I really, you know, first started getting interested in what I write about in my book. And that was probably 10 years ago or so when I started becoming interested in how some of these same types of dynamics really show up in leadership.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:42

It's amazing how there's cross applicability to things when there's, like, a truth. It applies to mothers and infants and couples and leaders in communities. And when you can figure that out and figure out how to apply it, you can just make such an impact with that. That's incredible. Yes. So can you help us with understanding? I love and I had the honor to read Jamie's book, so I got to see some of the references she has. She does a beautiful job of bringing in things that we're familiar with in pop culture, such as the movie Inside out or other references to help us understand things. Can you give us an example of how attachment and that relationship can affect how people are able to relate with others and how that can be in couples, can be in families, can be at work.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:07:33

Those of you who are listening and may not be familiar with attachment theory, there are actually kind of four styles, but one is closely related to more significant trauma. So I don't really talk about that as much in this kind of space with leaders and leadership coaching, but I talk about the three major attachment styles, which are secure, anxious, and avoidant. And these styles really develop out of our relationships with our early caregivers and how they respond to us. So real, basic, simple. It's not really that complex. But basically, for those who develop what is called an anxious attachment style, they often have caregivers who are inconsistent in the way that they respond. Like, so if a child gets hurt or they're scared or they misbehave, whatever it might be in that situation, caregivers often respond inconsistently. So sometimes they'll be like, oh, overly affectionate.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:08:33

And sometimes they'll get really angry and yell, and that's confusing and scary. To a young child. And they don't really know how to process that. And they start to think, not cognitively, but on an emotional level that, well, maybe there's something wrong with me. And that's why sometimes my caregiver doesn't respond in the way that I need them to when I'm in distress. And so in adulthood, this often looks like a lot of approval seeking because these are people who are really wanting affirmation and validation that they don't really feel like they got in their childhood relationships. And if you kind of take that into like leadership, for example, you see someone I talk in my book, I use the example of Michael Scott from the Office, which we all love to laugh. Right.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:09:23

At Michael Scott and his antics in the TV show. But if he were your leader in real life, you probably would not appreciate. Appreciated it at all. Right. Because he's always. He wants to be liked more than anything else. And that leads to a lot of inappropriate behavior on his part because he's trying to be the fun guy, he's trying to be liked. And ultimately, if you're, if that's how you show up as a leader, you're not giving feedback, you're not helping people grow.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:09:56

And sometimes you create really chaotic environments. And we can see that at Dunder Mifflin in the TV show the Office. So that's the anxious attachment style and kind of how it develops over time and then shows up in leadership.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:10

Yes. And I think that one of the reasons people find it so funny is they relate to it. Sometimes it's exaggerated the things that are being done, but there's at least pieces of it that are like, yeah, I had a boss do something similar. And do you actually have the statistic in your book? About 75% of. Was it 75% of folks their supervisor is part of. Yeah. They don't feel like they're getting the right connection from their supervisor. That's part of their distrust for their position.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:38

And so looking at that to realize that you also explained in your book that people that have a secure attachment, what they're taught to do as a leader, they can do easily. They can follow that flow. But if they don't have that secure attachment already, the things are being taught, they can't execute the way they're being taught to execute them because of there's this bottom line piece of where they're coming from when they're doing that.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:11:05

Yeah. And so Michael Scott is an anxious attachment style is kind of on one end of the continuum and on the other end of the continuum is avoidant attachment style. And in the book, I use Miranda Priestley from the movie the Devil Wears Prada as an example of that, right? And these are, you know, people who, for them, in their early childhood experiences, they likely had caregivers who were dismissive and in many ways may have just ignored their needs, right? So not responsive. You know, these. You kind of learn, I just had to take care of myself, right? Because no one else is going to comfort me, so I'm going to take care of myself. And they can become compulsively independent as adults and have a hard time being vulnerable, expressing their feelings, all of those types of things. And in the Devil Wears Prada with Miranda Priestly, you see that opening scene of the movie, right? She's walking into the office and people are terrified. They are so afraid of her because she's critical and just dismissive of them.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:12:11

She calls people names, she rolls her eyes at them, and she thinks that no one else really is capable of doing what she can do. And so that is the other end, the other extreme, the other end of the continuum and what you see in someone who has an avoidant attachment style as a leader. And then, like you were saying, for those who are secure, who have a secure attachment style, you know, they didn't have perfect caregivers growing up because, God knows, none of us are perfect. No one is a perfect caregiver. But they had good enough caregivers who most of the time were responsive, were engaged, were accessible when they needed them, who responded appropriately when they were scared or hungry or, you know, when they made a mistake as a child. And so they develop this sense of confidence not only in themselves but also in other people, that I'm confident in myself and I am worth the time and attention of other people. But I also know that I can count on other people. They're going to be there for me if I reach out for them.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:13:20

And so then, obviously, you can kind of make the jump, right? In adulthood, these are the people who are, you know, have the healthiest relationships and they're able to both be independent, but also recognize their need for human connection. And so in leadership, I would say that they would align most closely with, like, talk about transformational leadership. So people who really invest in their followers, help them grow and develop, but give good feedback and are honest about that, who create a calm and stable environment, who provide the conditions for, like, psychological safety, where people feel like they can make mistakes and they're not going to be punished for it. And they can grow from that. So those are kind of the three styles and how they develop over time and how they show up in leadership.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:11

I love that you've taken the time to break down the different pieces and then also acknowledge that you can have a workshop on psychological safety. But if your leaders aren't looking at what they need to work on and seeing that piece, then it's not going to actually shift in the direction you need to, regardless of what workshops and trainings you have this important concept.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:14:36

Yeah, absolutely. You're 100% right. You could do a workshop on psychological safety and tell them, tell people exactly what that means, what types of behaviors create psychological safety. But if someone doesn't have the capability within themselves to actually behave in that way, it's not going to help. They're not going to be able to follow through on that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:01

Yes. They need to be that secure base. And it's wonderful because not everyone has access to coaching, which I know you do coaching. So that is a fabulous option. And I love the coaching I've been able to do with folks and seen it makes such a difference with leaders. But this book is a great opportunity for folks to be able to look at that. So let's talk about how you make this shift from having insecure attachment and avoidant attachment to being able to being a secure leader. Secure human.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:15:30

Like a secure human. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:32

Yes.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:15:33

Yeah. And it's definitely. This isn't just for people in leadership positions. It really is for anyone. Right. This is helpful for parents and for people who are in intimate relationships and friendships. So it's helpful across the board. And I think there are really kind of, you know, I talk about three areas in my book that we can work on to become more secure.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:15:56

And the first one is our own ability to regulate our emotions. Right. So becoming better at emotional regulation, self regulation. The second is learning how to connect more deeply with other people and how to be attuned to other people, whether, again, whether that's in personal or professional relationships. And then thirdly is about integration. And so that's, you know, pulling what you know about yourself, really looking at your story, your history, your life experiences in an honest way and making sense of how they fit together so that you can have more agency and be more proactive in the way that you want to show up moving forward. So those are the three kind of big categories of where we can begin to focus some of our time and attention to become more secure, to earn security, as we put it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:52

Yes, I love that. That earn security that is, it is a process. It's not a one and done simple thing. It's something that's an ongoing way of going through that and starting with that first stage of that emotional regulation, which is something that I loved working with young children on that when I was doing my graduate work and first doing stuff out of college in graduate school. And recognize, like, I know a lot of adults who can't do this. So it's great we're teaching to young ones now so they can have it as they grow up. But a lot of us were never taught that as young children. So that emotional regulation, identifying emotions isn't as simple as we think it is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:32

We're like, oh, I can identify emotions, but I don't know how I feel right now.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:17:36

Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think with emotional regulation, the first step is understanding what your triggers are and then seeing how those triggers manifest and behave. Like how you respond to this trigger. So what are your triggers and then how do you typically respond to them? And so when we're triggered, it could be by anything. I mean, it's so unique to every individual what their triggers are. And a lot of that is based on their attachment style, their early experiences. But when we're triggered, we tend to either get hyper aroused, so we kind of emotionally maybe blow up.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:18:17

Right. Or on the other side of the coin, we become hypo aroused. So where we pull in, withdraw, try to stuff. That's the, that's I'm going to stuff the emotions down and act like they're just not there at all. Right. And so when we're triggered, we tend to react in one of those two ways. And so I try to help people identify what their triggers are and then notice. Do you become.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:18:44

Are you more likely to become hyper aroused and kind of blow up, express your emotions in inappropriate ways that might be overwhelming, like really overwhelming to other people and cause them to retreat and you kind of create, you know, that tension and chaos. Or do you become hypo aroused where you crawl into a corner and try to hide from your emotions and act like nothing's going on and avoid it as much as possible?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:11

Yes. And those aren't good feelings for the person experiencing them in addition to their environment.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:19:17

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:17

To the people they're working with. Yes.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:19:19

Yeah, absolutely. And you can see it in leadership, Right? I mean, you see the leaders who blow up when there's a mistake or, you know, doesn't achieve a goal or an outcome. And then. Or you see it on the other end of the continuum. Where people might see leaders who give people the silent treatment when they make a mistake or they don't follow through, or, you know, just avoid giving feedback and don't engage in honest conversations. So you can see both of those types of things in the workplace as well.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:49

Yes. So that's awesome that you have a way of looking at that and to be able to kind of walk through that, that's fabulous. And so then after the emotional regulation, what was the second area that you named?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:20:02

So I talked about connection. Human connection.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:05

Yes. And attunement. I love that. Attunement is a word that a lot of people can trip on a little bit. Do you want to kind of explain that a little more?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:20:12

Sure. Attunement is really. It's about staying in the present moment with the person you're talking to and not trying to jump to problem solving, because that's what so many of us do. Right. And I use the example in the book, you mentioned it earlier, of Inside out. And, you know, hopefully those of you who are listening, you've watched Inside out. Such a great movie. Highly recommended if you have it.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:20:42

But in Inside out, there's this part of the movie where Bing Bong, the character Bing Bong, loses something that's really important to him, a wagon full of toys. And he is just distraught about the fact that he's lost this thing that's really, really important to him. And his distress is slowing everyone down. They're on a mission. And because he's so distressed and depressed and upset about this, he's, like, not wanting to go on. And everyone's like, we have a mission to achieve. We've come on, we got it. We don't have time for this.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:21:15

Right. And so it's such a perfect example because one of the other characters, her name is Joy, she tries to deal with the situation by cheering Bing Bong up. She's like, oh, Bing Bong not. You know, this isn't a big deal. Let me try to make you laugh. Everything's going to be okay, you know, Come on, like, let's go. Like, so she wants to cheerlead him out of it, out of that situation. And what ends up happening, it doesn't work, right.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:21:44

He just becomes more despondent and more depressed. And then another character, Sadness, she comes over and sits down beside Bing Bong, and she is attuned to what he's feeling in that moment. And she takes the time to say, you must be feeling really sad. He's like, yeah, I am. I'm so sad right now. And she empathizes with him in that moment, and she doesn't try to rush him through it. She doesn't try to solve it. She's just present with him.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:22:20

She's matching where he is and being responsive to where he is in the moment. And what happens as a result of that is that he's like, okay, after talking with her for a few minutes, okay, this really. It really does suck. And I'm really sad about this, but I feel a little bit better, so let's move on, you know, let's continue on our journey. And I think that's really what attunement is all about. Slowing down, paying attention to people, being present, being resonant with where they are emotionally. And we sometimes think, oh, that's going to take way too long. But I promise you, it takes much less time than if you're trying to do what Joy did and fix the issue.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:23:07

And you can see that in leadership as well. I think sometimes leaders try to just rush past problems or challenges that people are having and solve them for them. When sometimes the best thing to do is to slow down for a couple of minutes and tune in to what people are feeling emotionally and give them the space to explore that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:25

Yes. Just holding the space for those pieces and the validation element, that's something that we work on a lot. And I know a lot of just managers and leaders and folks are so nervous about validating, being agreement or giving permission or, like, going to that place and, like, they're scared if they go there, they're going to slide off the hill instead of like, no, if you hold that space and you get that validation, you're able to bring them to the other side of that. It's just like a kid in a candy store that, like, if they need to. Yeah, it's really hard. You really want that candy. This is so upsetting. And that if you can start with that and do that, you can get them to leave the store much quicker.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:05

It's harder for 20, you know, for 20 other times, it's been handled differently, but it's still the type of thing, if you can do that, holding space and holding the big emotions and being in that space and having that attunement, it makes such a difference. And I think that our society in general is taught so much to distract into, like, whatever else. And there's tools for different things, but for the most part, being attuned and present and holding space can be so much more powerful to create that connection. Yes, that's so helpful. I love this. I love that you have an entire book that goes into detail with all of these pieces. And another piece of that, too, is you also have the space for people to actually explore this. And the stories is what leads into the third element that you're talking about, which I love how you talk about the importance of stories and give people space to explore their stories.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:24:57

Absolutely. And I do. I really think that it's so important for us to look back, to look forward and, you know, so spending some time thinking about your own life experiences and the things that have been influential in how you see yourself and in how you see other people. And, you know, this isn't about blaming, you know, it's not about, like, looking back and trying to find who's to blame, who's to blame for how I am now. Right. That's not what it's about at all. It really is about, you know, looking back, exploring your experiences to try to understand yourself in the present moment and how those experiences are influencing how you're showing up every day and then being able to make a proactive choice about whether or not that's the way you want. You know, if how you're showing up isn't working out well for you, whether it's in your marriage, as a parent, as a leader, if how you're showing up isn't working out well for you, you have the power to show up differently.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:26:07

If you can really understand where that's coming from and process through some of that yourself, you can choose to show up differently. And it takes practice and it takes work, but it is possible. And so I really want people to feel empowered to do that, to show up differently, to make proactive choices, to have a good understanding of who they are and where they've come from. But knowing that the past is powerful and it sometimes can predict the future, but we also have a lot of agency in that as well.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:40

Yes. It's funny that we don't realize when we're so tiny that we're learning, we're like a little sponge taking up all this information, and we're like, okay, so if it's different every time I get hurt, how I'm responded to, that must be something I'm doing. What am I doing wrong? And then you're nervous to try to ask for help because you don't know what you're going to get. And so that sticks with you. It's a lesson you learned. And so. And you develop strategies to kind of buffer that. And so to be Able to reexamine.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:27:11

Huh?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:11

That is why I do that. It's not because it works right now in my job, in my relationship, with my partner or with my kids. It's because that's how I learned before I even knew I was learning. And so now is my chance to be able to say, oh, that's what that was. And what can I do about that? Do I want to keep doing this? Was that the best way to do things?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:27:33

Yeah. And I was talking to a coaching client not too long ago who just really insightful leader. But, you know, he was sharing with me. He's like, you know, what I've realized is his father wasn't really present in his life, left their family very early, and the messages that he received were from his caregivers were that there wasn't anything special about him. You know, he just didn't receive a lot of affection and care. And the only time he did get affirmation was when he achieved. Right. So when he got good grades or, you know, something like that.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:28:11

So it creates this script in our brains. It creates this idea that in order to receive affirmation or acceptance, love, whatever it might be, that I have to achieve, I just have to keep achieving. I have to keep meeting goals. I have to keep, you know, doing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. And that can become really problematic, not only for ourselves, because it can lead to burnout and, you know, all of those types of things, and failed relationships. Right. Because if we're always trying to achieve, then what are we neglecting in the pursuit of that? And so, yeah, it's just that insight to say, okay, I see where this came from. Now what am I going to do about it? And how do I want to change that for myself going forward? How can I start kind of rewriting that story for myself and teaching myself that, no, I don't have to achieve.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:29:02

I'm worthy as a person because I'm human. And every human has inherent dignity. Right? Yeah. So it's really powerful to recognize where things come from and then have the agency to make different choices. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:16

And to realize it is a choice because when it first was developed, you were surviving. You weren't choosing. You were a child. So you were just developing survival instincts. And that's how it got ingrained. And you feel like you've chosen this, but really you never did. It just kind of came with the package. And now is your chance to actually wait.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:37

Does this work for me? Does this not work for me? Do I want to do different with my kids, do I want to do different in my relationship? Is this working at work? Like, what do I want to be doing? And that opportunity is so valuable to pause and realize, wow, like, this is something that I can change or do something about. And the prompts you have are so valuable to be able to walk people through, being able to not just read a book and learn more information, but to actually have an active opportunity to re examine things and to be able to look at, you know, what do I want, where am I at with these things and how is this impacting me and how do I want it to be different?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:30:12

Like, yeah, you know, you pointed out that as children, when we're young, we don't have a choice. Right. We're surviving from moment to moment in our environments. And those strategies. So the like we talked about earlier, like if you're triggered, like the hyper arousal, like kind of blowing up or like hiding in a corner, the hypo arousal, those strategies, they worked. They're protective. And when we're children, they're important strategies and they're protective for us. But many times the protective stories that we've developed over time, the protective strategies, at some point, they no longer are working well.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:30:53

And they're not helping us be who we want to be. They're not helping us, you know, experience success in the way that we want to experience success, personally, relationally, professionally. And so there comes a point at which, I mean, and as adults, we do have the power and the capability to say, okay, this is not working well for me anymore. I acknowledge that was necessary at some point in my life and I needed that, but now I don't have to do that anymore. I can be different. Yeah, it's just really try to empower people to recognize that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:32

I love all the work that you're doing. I'm so excited that you now have a book that people can connect with. Is there anything you want to make sure that people hear about or learn about before we kind of transition and tell them how to connect with you?

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:31:46

Yeah, I think I would just say that even if I want people to know that your brain is an incredible, incredible machine, and even if you had, you know, really challenging experiences early in your life and even maybe earlier in your adulthood, we all have trauma that occurs in our lives that we have to work through and deal with, but we're not prisoners to those things. Like, we always have the power because our brains are incredible. Like they are plastic and they change and we can create new connections in our brains all the time. And I just want people to have hope. You know, I want this to be a hopeful message that you can change, you can become more secure. Even if you feel like you identify, you can see yourself in that like anxious or avoidant attachment style. You don't have to stay there and you might always have to work on it, but you can become more secure and you can create a new story for yourself. You can create new neural pathways, you can show up differently.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:32:59

And so, yeah, this is a really, I think, hopeful message that I want people to hear.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:05

Yes, exactly. And so valuable that as much as coaching is definitely something you can get with Jamie, with Dr. Goff, that's an option to do coaching. She also does speaking, so she comes to organizations and does trainings as well. But the beautiful thing now it's a book. So anyone listening today, you don't have to get yourself into the coaching or into get your organization to come invite her to come speak or do those pieces. Those are also awesome opportunities. But you can buy the book and be able to read this and this.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:36

Very relatable stories that she has and to be able to work through this and start examining these things and starting on this journey. So I love that you've made this leap towards making this opportunity available to anyone who's ready to start exploring this and looking at that. That's such a gift. So congratulations on your book and for making this available to so many folks.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:33:55

Thank you. You know, just let people know that when you get the book, you also have access to a free journal. So there are a lot of prompts and journal exercises. But you know, I want people to have a resource where they can actually respond and write. And so that's something I make available to people as well.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:15

You definitely thought it through how best to make this something that people could really utilize instead of just sharing your thoughts to be able to make it something that could actually impact folks. So your passion to make an impact and make a difference and to see that coaching and these books as we're doing this is the bigger way to actually connect with more people and do that. So I'm so grateful for the work you're doing, Jamie, and so grateful you shared that with us today. And so obviously we're going to have the link in the show notes to the book because you can pre order it now. So definitely get on the pre order and get it. So as soon as it's ready, it gets sent to you. You can order it through your local booksellers as well. Do you want to share your website so people can learn more about all the other ways to connect with you.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:34:54

Yeah, absolutely. It's drjamiegoff.com so D R. And my name is spelled. My first name is spelled a little differently. So it's D R, J, A, I, M, E.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:08

That and the show notes, in case you didn't catch it. But it's always good. I feel like it's good to hear things as well. This has been so valuable. I think that each of us, even if we feel like we're in a good place, it's good to remember the way the stories and the way that our upbringing has influenced us to keep that in mind. So this is a very valuable conversation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:27

I thank you for making time to.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:28

Be with us today.

Dr. Jaime Goff [: 00:35:29

Yeah, thank you for having me, Shawna.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:34

I value the time we shared together today. Thank you for making time to be here and to continue taking steps towards growth and bringing more ease into your life. I'd love for us to stay connected on Instagram a@shawnapodcasts @the.grit.show. There's even a link in bio @the.grit.show Or you can send me an email to let me know what you thought of today's episode. Hearing from you helps to make the effort that goes into producing these episodes worthwhile. After all, you're why I'm here. And since it's been a while since you've heard this, you are the only one of you that this world has got. And that really does mean something.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:21

I hope you realize that I'll be back again soon. And I hope you're following along or subscribed so that you'll know and be here too.