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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Did you know that calling someone delusional could be a compliment? Turns out that's exactly how my dear friend meant it. Today's episode is for those of us in midlife trying to let go and wondering why we're still holding on. Vickey is a creative that you need to know. And when we jumped on a call recently, we realized we'd both moved since we last spoke into homes about half the size. And here's what hit us. We're both sitting in smaller spaces with less stuff, trying to make room for what's next. And we're both asking whose voice is actually in our head when we decide what to keep and what to release. This led to a conversation that proved pivotal for both of us, one that explores the blueprints passed down to us.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:44

Blueprints neither of us had examined as closely as we thought. Listen in to learn why things like even meticulous meal planning might have layers worth peeling back and how being delusional might actually be setting you up for success. If you've ever stood in front of a packed closet wondering why it's so hard to let go of things you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:04

Don't even use or wondered about the echoes from your childhood, this episode is for you. Welcome to The Grit Show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:53

We are here with the fabulous Vickey Brown today. You can read all about her in the show notes. She is a fabulous writer, incredible thinker, podcast host. She has so many gifts to share, and the biggest reason we're here today is for one you may not expect. Vickey and I are having a fabulous conversation about transitions we're going through and how our mothers and our background play into it. And I realize this is a conversation that you would like to be part of. So thank you so much, Vickey, for joining me for this conversation today.

Vickey Brown [: 00:02:27

Of course, Shawna, anything for you. And I didn't even realize I was that fabulous. So yay. Yay me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:35

Well, I've known that, so I'm glad I was aware of that. First.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:38

I'll take that for knowing that first. Yes. So both of us have recently moved and moved into smaller spaces and we were both talking about how we were handling that transition. So tell me a little bit about your transition and how the space you went from into the space you are now and how that transition has been going for you.

Vickey Brown [: 00:03:00

Okay, well, I went from like a 1500 square foot, like mid century modern rambler. Right. Because that was also a dream house for me. And then all the kids are gone. I'm an empty nester, the partner and I. So there's a building in my city in Columbia, and it's 1927 built. I've wanted to live in this building since I was 24. It's the first junior high school that was ever built in the state of South Carolina.

Vickey Brown [: 00:03:30

And I just thought, oh, I'm going to live here one day. And here I am. Because they turned it into lofts. And so the husband and I downsized to 875 square feet. And that transition after, you know, having a home for your children and the adult children and then all the other things and having to downsize, it's been. I enjoy the process of purging. I enjoyed the process of getting rid of stuff. And some of it was forced because our home that we moved from had mold and so we had to get rid of a lot of stuff.

Vickey Brown [: 00:04:05

But also, I mean, you're talking to a woman who has 20 hangers in her closet. Getting rid of stuff is not a big deal. But the transition feels clean, those kind Of like cleansing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:17

Which is amazing because I have recently moved and we moved from 2400 square feet to about 1200 square feet. So not nearly as big of a. But both has about half the size. Like, you know, both moved about half the size. And it's been a challenge and we're trying to figure out what to get rid of. And as we're talking, it's very inspirational for me to talk to you, Vickey, as you're like, yeah, no problem. And for you listening, I. You don't get to know Vickey as long as I have.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:51

So you don't realize that she is a fabulous creative. I have the most thoughtful gifts that she gave to me especially for my wedding. She gave me this beautiful, like, beaded pen, this fabulous handmade journal thing that we actually, it was like mad loves that we did. We were on our honeymoon, actually, if I ever told you that. It was so much fun. So she's so creative and does these beautiful things as well as Being a writer, as well as all these other pieces to her, she knits. She's. You've like crocheted dresses or something, haven't you?

Vickey Brown [: 00:05:17

Yes, I have.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:19

Yes, Yes, I have a crocheted purse too. Like, she's like, so she's like incredibly creative and crafty. And so as somebody who's creative and I'm sure you listening that you're also creative. And so you probably have all those crafts and creative things. You're like, as you downsize, those are things that I'm like, how do I get rid of all of these brilliant projects that I want to complete? And I'm not nearly as creative as my dear friend Vickey. So those are the things that we were thinking of. So as we were talking about, like this process, that was one thing that I'm like, how are you figuring this out? I have like a chair. I'm like, I love this chair.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:51

How can I let it go? And it's a chair. It's so silly. And so then we also started talking about our upbringing. And we both had different but some similarities in our upbringing. I know that with. And I'm realizing that I might have come from a little more of a scarcity mindset in my upbringing. Like, we had a large family, there was four kids. My dad worked, my mom worked part time to try to earn for us.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:14

But like, it was like, things were very tight and so it was hard to get things. I feel like that's one reason why I have a hard time letting go. And I have a father who I love a bit. Like, he has five wrenches and can never find one of them because he just keeps getting more, you know, more, more, more. And I feel like I'm the same way that, like, you know, more, more, more. And my husband comes from a similar, like, you know, us more of a austerity background too, where he tends to be that the result of that is that, like, we want to hold on to things because we felt like it was hard to come by things when we were younger. And Vickey, I loved it when I said something to her and her response was like, because she grew up with less, she's able to have less. So tell me more about that.

Vickey Brown [: 00:06:56

Well, I think again, like, I grew up in rural south, you know, in rural South Carolina and on family land. Like, let me say that first. So I think the getting of things that really mattered to me, it was a little bit easier, right, because we had a farm and we had all the things. But also I had a mom who I'm not even going to say, for lack of a better word, she was delusional. Which for me, and I mean that in, like, the best way possible for her, she would be able to look at whatever was lacking and say, well, it's not here yet, but we can come up with something. We can come up with something until that thing gets here. And it was always, not yet, not just no, or it's not here, we don't have it, but it's not here yet. And that kind of left all the possibilities open for.

Vickey Brown [: 00:07:47

Especially as a kid where the imagination is everywhere. So she could say, not yet, but we can do this, and then we'll wait for that. And so the waiting wasn't so bad when I knew she gave me a little bit of something to hold onto, and then I could just imagine when it all came in.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:05

And I love that. And that's definitely the mindset I'm trying to have with things. And as I let go of the chairs that I love or whatever else and we put them up for free, if we're not gonna get anything for them, like, let's just let them go. That I tell myself, well, I'll get better chairs later on, or I'll get something that I like more somewhere else. And those are the messages I try to tell myself, but it's interesting. I find it like I have to work at that. And I love it that for you, that's like. That's just like second nature.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:33

And you'd said in our conversation, your mom could just like, rub two nickels together and make happen. And my husband will say that about me, so he thinks that I can be like that, that I can be delusional.

Vickey Brown [: 00:08:43

Yeah, you. That's a good thing, right? Okay. I think it's a brilliant thing. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:49

Just make things happen. But my mother was one that her, like, she worked really hard to stretch the dollar and to make things happen. And that she was the queen is very sweet. Because of one of my dear friends, Lori. She actually. She's commented on this. She's probably one of my friends who knew the best that my mother literally had a menu. So she would sit down and make up a menu because money was so tight, Grocery shopping was so tight.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:12

That was her solution. She went grocery shopping once a month, and she planned the menu for the month. And so, like, you couldn't eat anything in the house because it was on the menu. And the hot dogs and, you know, Mac and cheese was Thursday, the 22nd meal. And so we couldn't have hot dogs or Mac and cheese for lunch on Saturday, because that was dinner on the 22nd. Because everything had to be very, like, buckled down that we had to have those things. And there was no pancakes and bacon for dinner one night because that wasn't the menu.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:42

And we, well, we didn't ever get to have bacon, but, you know, so we couldn't. Cereal for breakfast. And this is what was for dinner, and this is how things. And peanut jelly for lunch, and then these were the dinners. And it was very much that. That was how it worked. That was her way of doing things. It was very much like being.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:57

Working hard, being very planful, being very mindly, like, reining things in. It was how you managed having less, and being very restrictive was how you managed having less. And so that's how, like, I understood having less versus having this idea of, let's find the solutions and, like, you know, let's get creative unless this will happen. And it was, no, we have a budget. This is how much we can spend for school clothes, and that's it. And no new clothes. Instead of, like, well, maybe someone from the church will give us clothes, or maybe we could get this from somebody else, and maybe something else will happen. And I'm like, no, as soon as I get her my own money, I was buying my own clothes.

Shawna Rodrigues[: 00:10:35

Like, so it was very much like the bootstrap type of philosophy. So I love the. The nickels ribbing rubbed together and this. It can happen. And as an adult, I've tried to, like, figure that out more. But I love that for you, it's part of the. Letting go is easier because of your. That mindset.

Vickey Brown [: 00:10:53

It does make it easier. And, like, when you were saying, like, you know how, like, you can't just go and pick something out of the cabinet because it was on an A. I don't know that my mom had the wherewithal to plan. A month's worth.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:07

Yeah.

Vickey Brown [: 00:11:07

What? A month's worth of. No, that's not happening. Not my mom's household. Right? But also when you said restrictive, like, I was just like, oh, my gosh. Like, I just remember being able to go into our kitchen and mess up all the things, right? Make a tuna casserole without really making a tuna casserole that was edible. Because why would I do that as a kid and not necessarily getting, like, in trouble for it, but, like, oh, okay, so what can we do to make this halfway edible at least? Right? Let's put some biscuits on it and see if it works out. But also, I Think knowing that there was always another way. There was always another way to get something to make, in my mom's words, a way out of no way.

Vickey Brown [: 00:11:49

There was always another way to do that. And when you said someone from church, yes, that will happen, right? If we can't afford to get you shoes, somebody in the family has shoes they hadn't worn, and they'll give them to you. And it always happened. Which is why I think being slightly delusional and falling headlong into that delusion creates kind of a manifestation loop. Because regardless of what, like, my mom would say it, and she believed it, like, wholeheartedly. Right. I think I used the phrase, her truth became the reality. Even if no one else could see that truth, she believed so wholeheartedly in it that it was the reality.

Vickey Brown [: 00:12:31

And then it would just show up. And I know that sounds a little hokey, but honestly, it would just show up. And she's like, I told you it's going to be okay. Don't worry about it. And I was like, okay. And I grew up like that, and it's carried over into my adult life.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:47

Well, it's interesting because even, like, growing up in my house, like, I remember that I had the Bible verse about, like, pray and believe you shall receive and be given unto you. Like, there was a verse, the Bible verse that, like, I knew when I was younger, but so funny, because the believe and you shall receive, like, the believe part of that and it should be given unto you. Like, the belief part was never something we did. We feared and didn't believe it would ever work out. That was the part that I was taught was not the believing and the having the faith part of all of that was the part that was lacking. Like, you weren't deserving. Like, it wasn't always that everyone should get this and it would all come together and we all support each other. It was that you don't ask for help and you fear and you worry and you stress and, like, things don't happen.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:29

And I feel like that's the interesting piece of it all.

Vickey Brown [: 00:13:32

Yeah, I think so. And more than believing, it's unknowing, right? It has to be, like, not just a belief or faith, because you're still having to exercise that and be, like, actively working to say, I believe this now. My mom knew this is going to happen. I don't know when, I don't know how, but it's going to happen. And I didn't realize. In fact, it is. Like, I am today, years old right now, years old When I am realizing how great of an influence that I'm going to have to call her, how great of an influence that had on me and my perspective, because I literally. I don't worry about the end of all the things.

Vickey Brown [: 00:14:16

I honestly just. Okay. It'll happen when it needs to happen. And if it's not here or if I don't have access to it, if I'm having to stretch myself and work really, really, really hard to get a thing, then it's not meant for me to have in this moment. And you know, people could say that's laziness. That's like a days ago. That's this, that and the third, it's preserving. Right.

Vickey Brown [: 00:14:40

It preserves my energy, it preserves my sanity, it preserves my peace. And now looking at my mom as like, she was kind of brilliant and way ahead of her of the curveball with this manifestation thing. Right? Because, like, I'm 50 and she's 70 something and so she was way ahead. I am literally going to have to call her and tell her thank you. Right. Because I didn't realize how great of an influence that was and what a gift she gave me being that way.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:14

That's so beautiful.

Vickey Brown [: 00:15:16

Thank you. I didn't realize that you're not going to get me on here, Swin. You're not going to get me on here with the tears. It's not happening. But thank you. Thank you for giving me space to work that out in my head, because I didn't realize it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:30

Well, the interesting thing is that I will admit that just this morning I sent my niece a text message about teaching her do menus like my mom did, because budgets are getting tighter and across the country, snap benefits are being cut for people. And so my mind was like, well, my mom resolved this by doing this, right? Like, she resolved it by being really strict and very restrictive and then not realizing the other effect of that, that being really me thinking that was. And it is a good strategy. Like, I mean, I love it. I think my twist on it that I was going to talk to my niece about was that I would probably have it. So you can have a deck of meals and you draw one and if you don't want, you go to another one. But like, having some planning to your meals is a very useful tool that she did, and I love it. And I've had friends who, like, my friend Laurie remembers that who says, I wish I did that like your mom does.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:19

Did you know?

Vickey Brown [: 00:16:20

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:21

So it is a beautiful thing my mom gave me. I never stopped to think about the other side of that, that we weren't allowed to eat anything because everything had a purpose and had a time, and it was this day. And that's what the plan was. And it's so funny because my husband will tell you how much he loves living in our house because he. He grew up in a house where he actually got government cheese. I hope he doesn't mind. I'm saying that. But, like, he bonded over other people he worked with because, like, they were the government cheese kids, like.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:48

And they remember getting the government cheese. Yes, yes. And I. We didn't get it regularly enough. I think we got it when I was very young. I remember getting it. But then once my dad was working steadily, we didn't to get that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:59

But he. They got it regularly when he grew up. And so he loves our house because there's always so much food in our house. But we honestly, we waste food because there's too much food in our house. And we just. He literally took, like, a bag of candy because the other thing that he will notice, I have. I buy junk food, but I don't eat it all the time, which is really hard for people. I've lived in the past that they then have to eat the food if it's in the house. Whereas, like, I'm just happy it's in my house because we weren't allowed to.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:27

Like, there was freezer. In our freezer, there were pies that we would get from the hostess outlet. Like, you could buy, like, the pies for five for a dollar or something. And my mom would have the pies in the freezer for my dad's lunch. We were not allowed to touch them. My dad took lunch to work every night because he would work the swing shifter when he worked. And the pies were in my dad's lunch. We were not allowed to touch them.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:49

So I was used to having food in my house I couldn't touch ever. Like, not even. Like. Not just. Even just once in a while. And so literally, like, we had, like, one box that was. Made me sad. It was a box of Milk Dud.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:00

So Milk Duds were candy that I'd have at the movie theater once in a while. They were from 2021, y'. All. They've been in my house for four years. They've moved twice with us now. And I've never eaten them. And they're like a candy I would enjoy that I've never eaten because that's how fine I am with candy being in my house and me not eating It. But it's wasteful that I buy this candy because I'm like, oh, I love Milk Duds.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:25

I never have them. I should buy that. And then I never eat it, and it just sits in my house. But knowing now that we've had this conversation that the restrictiveness of my house, we weren't allowed to eat those things because the one treat in the house was the pies with my dad or we'd bake cookies, but the cookies were only when we're taking cookies to church, because we. Every two months, we brought cookies to church for Sundays or whatever. That's the only time we had cookies, and they were for church, not for us. Right. So consequently, I have way too much food in my house.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:56

So this might help me from buying and having too much food, because it's ridiculous how much food is in our house, and there's only two of us, and we don't need all this food. And my husband loves it, and I love it, but it's kind of wasteful and ridiculous at the same time.

Vickey Brown [: 00:19:07

Wow. I think that is a. I don't want to say a symptom, because that's not the right word. Right. This is not pathologizing anything, but I think when you grow up and everything is restricted from you and you don't have access to, like, what I would call, like, just, you know, the stuff kids want. We don't think about how childhood affects all of our choices. When we are adults, we don't think about those things until, you know, we're in these conversations, and then we're like, oh, wait a minute. That's where that comes from.

Vickey Brown [: 00:19:39

Oh, okay. That's why this podcast is important, because. Yeah. It's not something that we consider.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:46

Yes. And it's good to bring those things to the surface so that you're not, like, you have intention behind things again. So things aren't just a subconscious action being informed by things that happened long ago that you filed away in a cabinet and hadn't thought about why you're doing these things. You do this like, oh, that's just a quirky, cute thing about Shauna was how my husband was saying, she just likes to have lots of food in her house. And I was like, oh, no, that's why I like to have lots of food in my house.

Vickey Brown [: 00:20:13

See, that's like an epiphany moment, right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:16

Yes. I love that. Thank you so much for being part of that epiphany. And we got to help recognize the value. And I love that perspective that your mom offered your world about being able to make things happen and just visualize them and believe and trust and know that things will happen and things will come together. And that's a hard space to be in, honestly, to have that kind of trust and be in that. And so for some people, it's easier. And like, being there for your childhood might make it easier for you to be there as an adult.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:48

And I just love that.

Vickey Brown [: 00:20:49

Yeah. And definitely, again, not putting two and two together and coming up with four with that until just, just then, just back then, because. Yeah. And it's weird because even my kids, I've always been this way, even with them. But they are more of the scarcity mindset, which I have no idea. Right. Because it's like, I don't know, this is a thing that happens, right? You're. You want your kids to have more than you.

Vickey Brown [: 00:21:14

You want to provide them with more than you had. And we did, and I think to, you know, to their detriment in some ways, but they are still kind of more like, oh, we can't do this, we can't do that, and we have to wait, we have to. Blah, blah, blah. And they're all very good with budgeting and all the things, but they also don't, like, celebrate themselves enough, in my opinion. They don't treat themselves enough, in my opinion. And I'm just like, guys, what are you doing? Paper. Money's just paper. What are you doing? Like, the more you give, the more you use, the more you put out, the more you get back.

Vickey Brown [: 00:21:54

So stop. Stop doing this and open your hands and let stuff go.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:59

Yes. And that's back to the letting stuff go. And I think I mentioned you, I used to have, and I wish I knew the exact wording, I used to have a post it up at when I had my house in Yakima that was actually like letting me know, like, to clear things out to make room for what I wanted. And us not realizing what's taking up space in our mind, in our homes and our life, that's like clearing that out. And the episode that just released most recently for The Grit Show, before this one was talking about, like, the input and the things that we let into our lives. But it's also, this is a great follow up to that about what we need to let go of and clear out of our lives. And when we were talking, I'd mentioned the ultimate example for me, and I think we talked about the neuroscience of our brains needing reminders of when things have worked sometimes and not Having a linear timeline, so it can feel like it can be in the present and make it easier to move into that. And I had my first house I got to buy, and I always wanted to buy a house.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:56

And my house in Yakima was my dream house. I loved that house. And selling that house was hard. And selling that house was letting go of a lot of things when I sold that house. And yet when I did, at the time, I felt like I was making space for something else. And the something else I ended up buying, like, it was a much smaller home in the town where I lived, but it was also making space in my life to not be managing a house that wasn't where my job and my life was and all these different pieces. And so it was bigger than just, like, the direct transactional. Like, I got rid of this and made space for the same thing.

Vickey Brown [: 00:23:28

And literally, if you've heard Robie and I's love story, like, part of the love story was me hanging cabinets in my house and him coming to help me because. Because that was all part of that story. And literally, when I saw him that Thanksgiving, I closed on my house, like, the next week. So I'd sold my house and was closing on the house I was moving into. Like, it was right in that liminal space that I saw him. And we didn't speak, but, like, started connecting and then got together in that January. And that transition all happened at the same time. And so when I think of me selling that house, like, part of the gift that I got and what came into my life when I made room by clearing out my dream house was my dream relationship.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:13

This is better than I ever imagined. And so to me, like, that's a good reminder for me when it comes to, like, me saying, I can let go of this chair, because I may not get, like, a chair like this back. I might get a whole front room set. But that's the part of the thinking that as we let go of things, that it may not be a transactional thing, that we're even replacing it with. It might be like, I'm letting go of all the sweets in my house and getting a healthier life. Like, you know what I mean? That what you're letting go of isn't always the same thing.

Vickey Brown [: 00:24:42

Nope. And I love the word, like you said, it's not transactional. I find in most cases, if I'm willingly letting go of physical things, like visual clutter for me is a huge problem. I can't stand it. I really just cannot deal with it. I think it comes down to spending a lot of time alone in my home. Right. And quiet.

Vickey Brown [: 00:25:02

It's very quiet in my house all the time. So visual clutter becomes very cacophonous for me. And sound, all of it. Like, I need nice ease, quiet, Zen, like, space. But I do find that if I'm willingly letting go of physical things, if I'm willingly letting go of emotional, like, baggage, or I guess baggage is not the right word. Am I supposed to be PC? I'm not. So if I'm letting go of like emotional baggage or all the things, then what I'm making room for isn't transactional, but it is transformational. And I think that's like, you know, a lot of people get hung up on, well, if I, if I let go of the chair, I'm going to get a whole living room suit.

Vickey Brown [: 00:25:49

But. Right, right. If, if I, if I give this guy $3, I'm gonna get $3,000. Like, that is not necessarily what you need. You get back what you need, even though you don't necessarily know what you need. And so I am just always like, reminding myself and anybody, honestly, stay open, stay open, because the universe really does want you to have your very best life.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:16

Yes. And I think that's the best thing, that we all need to recognize that part of us, like the leaves, it's fall, it's letting go. Right. Like, as the leaves are letting go, they're like saving the energy to conserve themselves to be able to have flowers in the spring. So really, the leaves, they're letting go so they can have the beauty of the spring and the other pieces that we can't even imagine now as being what's in the future for them.

Vickey Brown [: 00:26:40

Yeah. Same as us. We cannot imagine what's in the future for us. And even if we do, we are going to be so limited in that imagination. So just be open because it's always going to be better than you can think of.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:53

I love that. I love that. So I think that the key takeaways for everyone listening is that there's no right way to let go. But there's a process for each of us that we're going through that there is value in us reflecting on our influences, both in positive lights that we hadn't imagined, as well as things that might be influencing us in ways we didn't realize. To, like, make the unconscious come to the surface, to be more intentional about how we're making decisions about things in our lives. I would say that's a very good one that Maybe we can look at some of our inherited patterns and see how that affects things as we are letting go and seeing how that comes into play. Do you have thoughts on that?

Vickey Brown [: 00:27:39

No, not really. I think you summed everything up and, yeah, the intentionality of it. Right. For me, I think, is probably the most important thing, because, you know, I have this podcast that's one of my big questions, right? Like, how are you healing? What are your intentions? The medical definition being the healing process of a wound. And I didn't know that until I was a word nerd, you know? And so, yes, the intentionality, it's all about healing. Like, what those are we here to do. Heal, show others how to heal. And so when you can be more intentional, you can kind of speed up or have a bigger influence in that healing process for yourself and others.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:22

I love it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:22

That's actually beautiful. And we definitely. We need to mention the Black Writers Therapy Podcast, because that's the podcast that Vickey has that you definitely need to check out. We'll have the link to that in the show notes. And she is also a fabulous author, and we will have those books in that. Links in that as well for you guys to get to know her as well. But if you love her voice and listening to her talk, she has. Fabulous.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:46

Fabulous is my word today, isn't it?

Vickey Brown [: 00:28:48

It is. It is. You're fabulous.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:52

You just bring that word out, Vickey. That must be it. The conversations you have with authors, though, I love. They're very much. You get to the meat of things even more so. You talk about the books and the meaning behind books and the experience of the authors, but you also get into real conversations that are so beautiful on that podcast, and that's one thing I love about it.

Vickey Brown [: 00:29:11

Thank you. It's a lot of fun. I didn't want to have a podcast that's just focusing on books because every author wants to talk about their books. And I'm like, I just want to know about you. And I'm nosy. So that helps, right? I think being nosy is a good thing. It is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:27

It's one of the beautiful things about you and your willingness to be a little bit delusional because your mom taught you to be a little bit delusional.

Vickey Brown [: 00:29:34

I am still delusional, Shawna. Every day I practice that. Every day I practice being delusional.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:40

Yes. I've never called it that before, but I think that's what I do try to. I try to be more of that. I try to have a little more delusion in my life and a little bit more belief and a little bit more trust in knowing.

Vickey Brown [: 00:29:50

Yep. And good for you. All good things come from that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:53

Well, thank you so much for having this conversation. I think it's very valuable and I hope that as you've been listening today, that listening has meant that you've been able to reflect on letting go for you as a listener. And maybe you're in the middle of a move. You'll have to send us a note and tell us about what you're letting go of as well. We'd love to hear about it.

Vickey Brown [: 00:30:13

Thank you, Shawna for having me. This was a lot of fun. As always.

Vickey Brown [: 00:30:17

Thank you, Vickey.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:21

I value the time we shared together today. Thank you for making time to be here and to continue taking steps towards growth and bringing more ease into your life. I'd love for us to stay connected on Instagram, @shawnapodcasts or @the.grit.show. There's even a link in bio @the.grit.show where you can send me an email to let me know what you thought. Today's episode. Hearing from you helps to make the effort that goes into producing these episodes worthwhile. After all, you're why I'm here. And since it's been a while since you've heard this, you are the only one of you that this world has got and that really does mean something.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:07

I hope you realize that I'll be back again soon and I hope you're following along or subscribed so that you'll know and be here too.