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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Have you ever wondered why stress lingers even after your to do list is done? This week on The Grit Show, we're bringing back a popular conversation I had with a dear friend who is also a fellow MSW as part of our Summer of Encores. In this episode we sought to unlock the mysteries of the stress cycle, which was something I was surprised I knew so little about and and thanks to this episode, took time to dive in and learn more about so that we could have this conversation and hopefully bring some value to my life. Which it did, and yours as well. In this conversation, we explored how our personal ways of processing emotions from drama on tv, laughter, creativity, touch can truly help us move forward. It's a powerful reminder of what it really takes to get to the other side of stress. And it's not as simple as just stuffing it down like we were taught when we were. Well, forget taught. We do it every day, right? Listen in and unlock powerful insights and down to earth strategies that could really shift you away from how you're currently caring for things to really take care of yourself.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:14

Which is something you know I care deeply about and haven't focused on the last few months, which is why we're doing the Summer BON course. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to the Grit Show where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host Shawna Rodrigues and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. Today we are so fortunate to have with us Matt McKinnon.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:05

He is someone I have been privileged to call a friend for longer than I want to count, but I'm very, very, very lucky to count for as long as I have. Matt and I first met working together in Head Start some time ago. Decade plus couple decades. A while ago. It's been a while. It's been a while. We'll just say that he is currently working in hospice that has been doing home visiting for 15 years because he's first started doing that with the Head Start program. He has a master's in social work.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:33

He definitely says he's no expert when it comes to our topic. Today but the reason I value Matt so much is he is so useful to reflect with and to be able to bounce ideas off of and to give you insight. And his way of looking at things in perspective is just so valuable. So thank you so much for being here today, Matt. I am grateful to have this conversation with you today on Burnout and helping us working through the cycle of emotions.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:02:59

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it and I'm very happy to be here.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:04

Yay. Well, good. So as an exercise for us to prepare for this conversation, Matt and I both read the book Burnout. Burnout, Burnout, Burnout, Burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:03:15

Lots of Burnout.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:16

Lots of Burnout. Lots of Burnout. The Secret to Unlock Stress Cycle. And so we're going to do a two part to this conversation. So today we're going to kind of focus a little bit on this book that we both read. It was by Emily Nagoski and her sister Amelia Nagoski, and they are twins who did this work together around burnout and the stress cycle. And I got a lot out of the book and got Matt to read it and come have a conversation because I wanted to be a dialogue around this. Because we both worked in social work and both know a thing or two about burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:03:48

Would you say yes, the book was great. Very helpful, and I've listened to them on some podcasts and things too. So, yeah, very helpful.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:56

Lots to talk about, lots of chew on. So we're gonna chat a little bit about the burnout and the stress cycle this episode. And then next episode we're gonna talk a little bit more about kind of our reflections on where things are at and how we kind of get to that next phase and how we kind of support and think about where these things are. So I'm excited for both of these parts of our conversation.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:04:15

Sounds great.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:18

Yes. So for me, this concept of the stress cycle was kind of groundbreaking. And again, we both have master's in social work. We both have master's programs from two different. You went to Portland State in Oregon. I went to Boston University in Boston. But this wasn't really something I felt like I learned about when I was in graduate school and feel like it's something that I should have learned more about or I'm grateful to be learning about now. What are your thoughts on this stress cycle and the importance of understanding it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:04:45

Yeah, I mean, I would say the same. Some things I think were a little familiar right away. The thing that was most impactful for me is separating out, like, the stressors in my Life or in my day. And then like my stress and how those are separate. There's the stressor and then the physiological experience of stress in our bodies and separating those out and being able to deal with them separately and in different ways. And that was really enlightening for me. Like, I had never framed it up this way, thought about things like this loosely. But yeah, the book, it was really helpful the way they framed it up.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:26

Yeah. I think that I remember learning about the difference between good stress and bad stress and useful stress and like all this stupid stuff about how not all stress is bad and that type of thing. I remember like learning about that and needing to like figure that out to be like, okay, this is still stress, but it's a good stress. And like it's almost felt like it was constantly trying to like brainwashed me to not be so stressed by not considering all stress bad. And it was more just powering through and just that put on your big girl panties, just keep going and doing and pushing and muscling your mind through everything instead of actually like processing and feeling and experiencing. And I feel like this book was kind of helping me to actually process and experience and understand the physiological aspects of this as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:06:08

For sure. Yeah. And I would share similar thoughts about just sort of stress management techniques or things being phrased up kind of that way, focusing more on like the stressors and how to deal with things, like you said, positive stress, negative stress, you know, different events in a life, like a car accident versus a wedding or something like stressful events, but viewed differently. And yeah, the way this is framed up with the real physiological experience in the body and how to work with, you know, that experience and moving through it is something that felt very new for me and impactful and encouraging. Like once it was framed up in a way that was separating things out and kind of making that make sense. There was a lot of encouragement in next steps and how to. How to work through the stress cycle and what they were talking about. So.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:56

And thinking about how much we logic our way out of stress and think that like we've taken care of the stressor, we've taken care of that. So even like right now we're trying to figure out where to board our. Because we have a trip that we're coming up and it's ridiculously silly things because we don't have our house, we're trying to sell it, it's being shown, cats can't be there. The trailer that my fiance is living in is not where they can be because Zas can go with us to Yellowstone, and we're not about to have cats get out in Yellowstone. So the logistics of this is stressful. So we figure out the logistics. The stress of it, it's gone. But this whole concept of saying that just because you, like, figure out the details, just because you take care of the logical, resolve the issue, you can still have the anxiety of figuring it out that you haven't fully worked through.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:38

And this is a very innocuous example. There's much bigger examples. But just this concept that once I solve something, I may not be done working through the stress of it is a whole concept that, like, we never think about. Right?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:07:49

Right, Absolutely. A good current example. Right. Where once you're done with the planning or the thing, moving on, there's sort of that expectation of dealing with it, like, cognitively and then moving forward and not dealing with that experience was like, for your whole body, right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:09

And just to push through and keep.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:08:10

On pushing, keep on pushing through, keep on pushing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:13

And we do so much of that in our world, in our society, and that's. There's actually a complete cycle. You need to work through doing it. And the example they use in the book is that you're being chased by a tiger that after, you know, you get safe out of harm. But it doesn't actually, like, end with you being safe out of harm. There's actually like a. You go tell somebody about it, you actually, like, go through telling the story, or you actually kill the tiger. And there's a ritual to, like, take care of the tiger and do whatever else.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:39

So there's these, like, completion of cycles with handling the situation that actually work you to the other side instead of, like, you run and you stop and like, oh, I'm fine now, and okay, we're gonna just move on with our day. That there actually needs to be rituals and completions of the cycles for you to get to the other side of them. And that's the other piece that it talks about a little bit, is the. It calls it the human giver syndrome. But I think it's really this concept of how much we as individuals in our society, especially for women, it kind of focuses on that piece. But I think a lot of people that we kind of close our mouths and don't respond to something. And for women a lot, I feel like for me, what spoke to me was the safety element of when I'm in a difficult situation. I remember being on the train in D.C.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:22

and having this conversation that when somebody is acting away towards me and being disruptive and doing stuff that's making me uncomfortable, you just ignore them. You put on a funny face, you laugh, you act like it's not a big deal. And. And then you got to train and go home and go to bed instead of actually, like, being able to process what happened and finish those emotions that you shoved down to keep yourself safe in that situation is, like, a really good example. It's probably more prominent for women, but I'm sure it happens to people in different situations that. Because you don't actually work through that full cycle because you're doing the polite thing, the necessary thing. And I just had an article I put up on my Facebook about a mom talking about defending her daughter against the grandpa that was, you know, playing aggressively and whatever else, and being the voice for her daughter to say to stop playing that way. Cause she didn't like that, that she did stand up for her daughter.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:11

By the time you don't get to stand up in those situations because it's too difficult with your family and you just move on and go make the dinner and go do the things and don't get to complete the stress cycle of how hard that was to. To deal with that and to bump up against those situations. And so for each of us, there's different ways that we go through our days that we don't get to, you know, yell at the person who bothered us at the grocery store that we don't. And people are doing more of that. But those things that we're push that we don't actually recognize that we need to actually release those things and work through those things. And that that's part of that. Not completing that cycle and getting to the other side of it is building up on us and weighing down on us and adding to us to our wellbeing and adding to burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:10:53

Yeah. You know, I was reading through, like, there was a very, like, intentional part of what that would look like for each of us, like, how to complete that stress cycle and to realize after whatever the situation is that you just gave an example of, like, just breathing or different things that we can do in a very, like, intentional way to allow our body to process and work through whatever the experience was that was stressful, upsetting, frustrating, whatever it was. And for me, it felt hopeful in, like, understanding it better. But then, like, can be challenging also in a very intentional way. Doing some of the things that they talk about that can help our bodies process and move through things as opposed to holding things and being quiet about things. And not allowing ourselves to really express what we need to and sort of recover and heal.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:43

Yes. And have that full cycle. What were some of the things that spoke to you as ways to kind of complete that cycle and move to the other side of that cycle to make sure you get through it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:11:51

Yeah, so, well, physical activity was one that they talked about a lot. And, I mean, we all have different things that we enjoy or don't enjoy, which they talk about also. And so there's different options, but physical activity was one for sure. Breathing in a very, like, focused, intense, slow, deep breathing kind of way. You know, they talked about big belly laughter, just really being able to express joy in that way, you know, either with community, loved ones, whoever, or even just privately just being able to really laugh and allow your body to do that in a big way, expressive way.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:27

Do you need more Ted Lasso?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:12:30

That was helpful.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:33

Matt is the reason that Robie and I discovered Ted Lasso and watched Ted Lasso. So that's a good laugh.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:12:42

And helpful to have, like, you know, things that can kind of spur the laughter or, like, a good cry. They talk about, like, a good big cry, and I believe there's examples of ways to kind of give that it's not coming just sort of naturally to kind of spur that experience. And I was thinking about, for me, like, with my work, I've had go to songs that I've put on nice, like, at the end of a day or the end of a week that I know are gonna bring the tears and the crying out, you know, if I'm a little hesitant to go there or whatever. So I. So, like, just having some things that, for me, like, are gonna help me laugh big or cry a lot if I need to have music does that for me. There's a couple specific songs that I've used.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:30

Do you mind sharing one?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:13:32

Well, I'll share. The musician is the Mountain Goats. And it's just the lyrics in this song is like a personal experience, very connected to, like, what I do for my work, end of life kind of things. And, yeah, a group musician that I appreciated a lot before. And it just so happened this song was one of his songs. And it spoke to me, and I've used it a lot of times to cry if I need to cry.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:02

That's incredible.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:14:03

So having those things that we can all like, whether Ted Lasso or a song or whatever it may be to help us express.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:10

Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:14:11

So, yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:11

When my mom was. When she was sick, when she was going through her. Specifically through the treatment for her melanoma when she's going through treatments for going down to San Francisco for her treatments. And there was a lot going on and things were very chaotic. And watching Grey's Anatomy was actually my. Guaranteed to make me cry most every week was that TV show. And it was therapeutic for me to be able to watch that show and to be able to just practically cry on demand, because that show was my reason to cry, and it was very helpful. So I definitely believe in the power of having outside resources that get you to cry when you need to.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:47

And there were movies that we had those moments with, and you guys all met Lori Leal on our previous episode. I think that was episode 54, I wanna say, was her episode that she came on. But she and I have been friends for a long time and we lived together. There was this one time where we got Heavenly, I think was what I wanted to watch. And we had to get tuna fish sandwiches that we made from frank fresh French bread. You watch that show and cried. And that was just, like, what I needed for whatever I was going through at the moment. I don't even remember what I was going through, but I wanted to watch that movie and cry was exactly what I needed at that moment in time.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:18

And so sometimes when you're, like, compelled to watch that. And one of my coaching, my executive coaching clients, we had a nice talk about her not taking time to watch her show and feeling guilty when she had that and saying, no, you need that, especially if it's a show. And she's like, it does make me cry. I'm like, you need that. That's something you need to set the time aside to have your time. Like, I remember seeing hearing somebody speak that talked about, like, your eyes are like bladders that need to be emptied. Like, the. The tears, like, you need to empty them regularly.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:44

But it's also like this completion of the stress cycle. And we all have stresses that we need to be able to process and doing that, but the intentionality, too, I think that you recognizing that you need to do that as part of that. And me realizing now, whereas it happened way back when my mom was sick, that I did that without knowing I was doing that. And now I think I'm getting a little better about trying to remember that I need this, and that's why I'm doing that. I mean, you're intentionally doing it. I think it's helpful as well to know.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:16:13

Yeah. And I think too, there's some discussion too, about how, like, sometimes intuitively we know, but maybe can't name it or whatever. And like. And then also there is, like, very much the intentionality of it. Noticing that there's probably a daily practice. Right. Because stressors are there daily. And again, not an easy thing to carve out time each day to do something intentional like this.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:16:38

You know, focusing on completing the stress cycle and our own bodies and physiology and that healing and also very, very important. Intentional is kind of the word that I keep coming back to because for me, having something like front of mind that's about health, wellness and deserving to take the time to do something like this is important. And not having, like, guilt about it or whatever, like, it's important. Intentional. There's a purpose to it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:06

Yeah.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:17:07

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:07

Well, it's amazing how many different activities. Because of course, like, we've had, like, it's been a while back in the fall that Bo Beaumont was on around breathing, because he's did stuff around breathing and breath work, like we talked about, the different types of breath work can be something you can use. And so you can be really intentional with things like meditation and yoga and breathing as something for you to use. But I really think that things like, you know, watching a show that you know is gonna make you cry, something that helps you to process like that. When you and I were speaking earlier, Matt and I spoke earlier about her podcast that I hadn't heard, and they talked more about how having something you can fully immerse yourself in can really help you do that. So that can be something like a video game, it can be something like a book, it can be something like reading. So these items that we think of as self maintenance and talk about regularly on this podcast, that those are actually things that are helping you complete your stress cycle. And for you to actually be like, I'm going to go read a book, because mom needs some time to maintain herself and do the tune up, which we'll talk about more in the next episode, that the thoughts are on self maintenance, but that you need to do those things and that that's actually taking care of yourself.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:13

And the more you frame it as that, the more benefits you're going to get from it being that. Right?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:17

Absolutely. Yep. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:18

Yeah. So that's an important piece of it. And I love that laughter is one of it. I know the reason you do hang out with more of your friends for those positive social interactions. Right.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:26

Right. Absolutely.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:27

To spend time with more of your friends that actually make you laugh. So not polite, draining interactions, but like people that actually make you belly laugh until you cry. So yeah, that might be your grit wit today. You have to think of the last person that made you belly laugh till you cried. And then you need to call them because you need to spend time with those people because those are important for completing that cycle and getting to the other side of it.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:48

Yeah. It's good to know our people that can draw these things out in us. I know. You're one of mine.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:53

Yay. You're one of mine too. That just means you can hang out more.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:18:56

For sure. I know.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:57

I got your leaving you a message like, dude, your stress cycle's calling. We need to hang out.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:02

We gotta laugh. We gotta laugh.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:03

We gotta laugh. We gotta come with a good reason to laugh. I like it. I like it. Yes. But it also talks too about some of the physical contact as well, too, with affection, with even just petting an animal, petting a cat, or petting an animal as well as like an embrace is actually. Didn't they have like a timeline?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:19

20 seconds.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:20

I love it that you know that. That's awesome.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:22

Six second kiss, twenty second hug. That was the, that was the, the parameters.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:26

It actually like lowers your blood pressure and your heart rate and improves your mood. So you actually need to 22nd hug. So that quick little hug is not enough. You need a 20 second hug.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:19:36

There is part of that too, where it's like, for both in the embrace, there's a message of connection and love and like safety to be close for that long. So that's like a message to our bodies. Right. That this is a safe place for. For my body, for me with this safe person who also feels that with me. And how that's just that kind of affection that's prolonged kind of gives us the messages our body, the messages that are, you know, about safety and comfort and support. And I kind of was thinking, like, I was like, when was the last time I gave anyone a 20 second hug?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:14

Well, since this podcast is over, man, I got third.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:20:17

The stopwatch, right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:19

Yes. To actually pay attention, to do that. Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:20:22

Because I know, like, with my family, like, it's hugs and embraces and warmth and it's just thinking about like a long embrace that's just holding like that. I mean, that's pretty, pretty awesome mind again, intentional.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:34

Well, this goes back. So I moved to Boston, like right before September 11th happened. Like, I'd been living there like a week when September 11th happened. And so I didn't know anyone very well in Boston. I met lots of lovely people when I first moved there, but not anyone I'd be Hugging, let alone for 20 seconds. Right. I was very new as a single woman in my early 20s. Very cautious of physical contact as it was.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:00

And when I came home, thankfully, I flew home to take care of the little girl that I had nannied. It was her brother's bar mitzvah. And so they flew me home so I could kind of be around to help out with her at that event. And it was the best thing ever. And I tell you, the person who picked me up at the airport, that I cried like a baby when they hugged me, because I'm gonna cry just talking, because I had not been hugged in two months at a time that our country, like, was falling apart. And it meant so much just to be held and just to be hugged, because that meant so much to me. So that was definitely 20 second hug. And that definitely, like, that safety and that connection, like, is memorable to this day and it's been a long time because that can make such a difference, to feel that connection.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:21:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:46

I cry a lot on my podcast. Maybe I record these episodes so I can finish my stress cycle.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:21:54

If it needs to come out. Let it out. Right? Like, let it out. Let it out.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:59

Finish my cycle.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:02

I cried this morning before coming. I was just gonna say, like, let it out when it needs to come out. You know, honestly, like, preparing for this and doing some of the processing and reading and like, thinking about just kind of work things and, you know, like, mentioned the songs before and stuff that. Yeah, it's just a little tears this morning, so. And I also thought about that in a very different way this morning. Like reading this and engaging with this information. Like, the tears this morning felt different than, like, kind of before. I was engaging with this information, which was interesting to me.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:38

Kind of had a different awareness and let things flow a little more than I might, you know, previously. Just maybe settling into more comfort with letting my tears flow as I was.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:48

Engaging with this material and realizing that this is necessary.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:52

Yeah. Intentional. Let loose.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:55

Yeah.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:22:55

Let it flow.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:57

And we need to complete that cycle because we do have so many stressors, which I know we're getting more into, like, present day stressors a little more in the next episode. But it's just so true, like, that every time you turn around, there's something else. And if you don't complete these cycles, they just keep compounding and piling on each other and it's exhausting.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:23:17

Right? Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:19

Which is what leads to burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:23:20

Burnout. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:21

Burnout. Burnout.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:23:22

Burnout. Burnout, Burnout. Five of them. Five. Burnouts.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:26

On the cover definitely made that very clear. Very clear. Yes. So one of the other things we talked about, too, was the creative expression, Right?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:23:35

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:35

Which I love that. And it's funny, because I have been craving creativity so much lately. And it's interesting because I had a home in Yakima, Washington, some time ago. It's been some time, but I actually had an art room there, and I have been missing that art room. And right now, we're in the process of selling our house. So I don't feel like I can get out a canvas and make a mess in my house. But I'm getting to the point where I don't care. Someone can come and look at my house, and they're gonna be a messy canvas, and I don't care, because I really have this desire to do that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:12

Because it can be painting, sculpting, but also can be music and storytelling and writing. All the different ways that you can just do that creative piece and dancing and, like, expressing yourself, that doing those things are a way for you to kind of transform and complete that cycle in a beautiful way. And I don't remember if it was the book or where I saw it, but there was somewhere that they were talking about. Somebody had actually, like, written something or a dance about the loss they experienced. It was a very intentional way of somebody transforming and doing that. I feel like a lot of artists in our society, which is why it's unfortunate when art does get taken out of schools or out of programs or ways of thinking, ways of processing that it's such an important way for people to be able to express and process and work through things. And if you're somebody who, like, obviously we have a coloring book, it is part of the grit show, the Color of Grit. And the coloring books are meant so that you have a way to express and that you can have a way to kind of lose yourself in doing the mindfulness coloring.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:25:17

And, you know, you can scribble over and draw your own pictures. It doesn't really matter. But to have a way to kind of have that creativity and get in touch with that as a way to complete that cycle. So it's not even just about nourishing yourself. It's also about completing that cycle. And I think it's important to have that perspective with it as well.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:25:33

Yeah. And, you know, it's like, so many wonderful options, you know, to support us in completing the stress cycle and working through things and, like. Yeah. Creative expression. You know, I enjoy playing a little music from time to time. And Just different ways of thinking about it in a different way than I did before. Like, if I sit down with my guitar a little bit, you know, I can be intentional with it and get a little more creative with it and have it be kind of a personal experience. That's part of something I need in that moment.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:26:04

And I think for me, it was really encouraging to see, like, you know, as they're sharing all these options that we can do for to support this, like, there's a lot of choices and a lot of options and a lot of things that we're already doing already or enjoy already. And just like focusing in this way in a different way on why it's so helpful felt encouraging and possible.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:25

Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:26:27

To do daily or whatever.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:28

Like when you have teenagers or when you were a teenager and like you wanted to draw, you wanted to play your music, you wanted to go lay in the bed and listen to music and cry, and you wanted to go watch movies that just made you cry and you wanted to go do all these things. It's like you were just building up your repertoire of how to process emotions and finish your stress cycles. And that's what your teen years are, are perhaps, who knew? And that's what we should be encouraging, letting our teens do, right?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:26:55

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:55

Like, as the kids are learning these skills and doing these things that if they need to process these emotions, then yes, go play your music loud, go bang those drums, go play that guitar, go do those things. Because that is your way of completing these cycles. Go paint, go draw, go do those things. Because that is your way of doing this. That's great. And it's great too, if you're giving the tools of. I heard on this podcast this is a really good way for you to be working through your emotions. So I hope as you get older, you remember to do this, that when you are feeling overwhelmed and life is getting stressful and you feel like you have a lot on you that you remember, this is your way of completing this cycle.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:33

Instead of pushing through that, you take the time to get back to these things that are ways for you to kind of complete the cycle for you and take care of yourself. And the self maintenance piece, which we're gonna talk about more in a great.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:27:43

Example about how we're learning these things throughout our lives. The things we enjoy, the things we're interested in, the things that feed us.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:49

Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:27:50

And like I've been told by family, loved ones, like, you know, keep doing the things that feed you as long as you can, you know, especially if it's like something active or physical that's like, you know, that's at some point I just maybe can't do as much or as often or as I get older or whatever. But, like, keep doing the things that feed you and as long as you can. And I mean, now we know as often as you can daily. Like the things that really feed us in this way that are part of.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:16

This cycle you need to complete on a regular basis. Because the stressors are not getting smaller and they're not getting fewer.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:28:21

Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:28:21

And in the book and Burnout Burnout, the Secrets Unlocking the stress Cycle, they talk about the real enemy, and it's kind of talking about what we might talk about in other circles as being kind of the patriarchy, the systems that be the things that push back, that make it hard to survive and make it hard to get through. And kind of the examples that I mentioned that as a woman on the subway feeling intimidated, that that's the type of things they're talking about. So the real enemy are all these things are just baked into getting through your day that make it hard to get your day. That it's an enemy that's outside of you. That's just the way things are that you don't feel like you have control over. That's going to take a long time to change, that you can't change. But you have all these things you do have agency over and all these ways you can nurture yourself, care for yourself, take care of yourself. And that being aware that those are legitimate stressors you are experiencing every day as you go through your life.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:10

And if you are a person of color, if you're a person who has other things in your world that people can't see that make it harder for you to get through the day, whether that be things that people can't see. Like you have a hard time connecting with others. You have a hard time being able to understand what's going on in the world. Like all these other factors that you're dealing with, that those things are the real enemy. Right. That you can't control those things, so you can just control you and how you handle your stressors and that you give yourself a gift of understanding that just because you solved the problem, just because you managed to figure out a new home to move into, just because you found a way to pay the bills this week or this month, just because you found a way to get a new job, it doesn't mean that you haven't completed the stress cycle and that you don't need to take care of yourself to get to the other side of the stress cycle. And there aren't maintenance things you need to do to kind of complete that. And that's kind of what we talked about with all these examples we've shared here today.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:04

Yeah. The daily maintenance of not only the structures and things that are part of our worlds, but like the other daily maintenance and behaviors that we can do to lift ourselves up, support ourselves, and in a way, we push back against structures and things that are really difficult.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:21

And hard to push against.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:23

Yeah, hard to push against. Yes. Hard to push against. And the burnout, the exhaustion of. Yeah, very hard to push against.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:29

Very hard to push against.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:30

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:30

So we've talked a little bit about what I call self maintenance, self care, Self maintenance is very much attached to. So what are some of the things that you've been doing, in all honesty, because again, like, you're learning all this with us and unlocking some of this as we go. But what have you been doing to kind of help maintain and take care of yourself in the last week or month?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:30:50

Well, I do well as often as possible. And now I'm gonna lean towards more often taking walks just around my neighborhood after work or, you know, on weekends, like, whenever. Cause that's something I enjoy. The physical part of it. There's a little bit of a social aspect. I like live. It's a neighborhood. Lots of folks walk through and ride bikes through and stuff.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:13

So there's a little bit of a social aspect to it. And then just being outside really feeds me. And I enjoy that a lot and try to do it almost daily if I can. Music for sure, Whether it's listening to something that'll draw out tears or something for me, or playing a little music, you know, I think that's something I'll focus on more intentionally is sitting down with my guitar and playing a little. And then you know what I'm gonna say next. I'm a big.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:41

I'm hoping you're gonna say it. I was like, don't leave out the coolest things about, like, please share.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:46

I love skateboarding. Oh, there it is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:48

There it is.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:49

Thank you for cheering for me. Loving skateboarding.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:53

Yes. I love that about you. That's one of the most fun things about you. I love that about you.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:31:57

I've been skateboarding since I was 13 years old, so decades. It's something that even this summer, I've been trying to do more because it is one of the things that feeds me and has since I was a teenager. Like you were talking about before, right? Like I found it when I was 13. I know it feeds me. There's a creative expression part of skateboarding also that I enjoy has always fed me. And it's just one of the things that I know how it supports me mentally and physically when I take the time and carve out the time to do that. And so I've made that more of a priority lately and it's felt really good to do that more. So those are some of my things.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:41

I love that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:32:43

Thank you for encouraging my skateboard talk.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:46

No, I love my skateboard talk. I seriously do. It's one of those things that I think is incredible that you have something that you've enjoyed that long and you've continued to make space and honor that. Because I think too often people let go of the things that they really enjoy like that for various reasons. I mean, there's health reasons, there's different reasons. People do have to let go of things of like the. But it's really impressive that you've managed to hold onto that and that I see the way you light up when you talk about it, which makes me love and enjoy it because the fact I do know that it is something that you get so much out of. So.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:17

Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. Thank you. Helmet. Helmet. Always. Safety, safety, safety. I'm always saying about it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:24

Helmets. Yes. That's why you're still doing it.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:25

That's why I'm still thinking about it. Yes. Longevity. Trying to do it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:28

Yes. So in fact, I think when I do the episode art for this, I'm gonna have a picture that has you and I present day. And then the other half is gonna have that awesome picture of I have of you from skateboarding in a bowl that I have a really cool movies.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:38

Oh, I don't think I even knew you had enough that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:40

Yeah, you've sent it to me, so it's funny.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:42

Oh, I know what it is. I know what it is. I do, I do.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:46

I have to give credit to anyone special. Will somebody sue me if I use it?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:33:50

Well, it's a photo of me, so. And well, one of my brothers, they're there. The photographer.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:56

Brothers can't come after me. Brothers can't come after me. So. Yeah, no, because that's just such a fun photo of you. I feel like that captures you. So. Yeah, it's a good balance to have our like home visiting big hearted Matt, who's done so much for families and so for so long that also has this awesome side of him. That loves the skateboard.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:15

That's like that genuine side of you as well. So I love the balance.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:34:18

Yeah. It's a big part of me and I enjoy sharing that and I appreciate you encouraging that. How about for you? You mentioned me recently. My things. What about your things?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:29

What about my self maintenance?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:34:31

Yeah, your self maintenance.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:32

My self maintenance lately, because I've now decided it is self maintenance is I have been watching a TV show. The love of my life doesn't care for drama. He does not care for drama. TV shows, not his thing. Science fiction and comedy, which we do comedy together, which is great. And I don't mind science fiction at all. It's good sometimes. There's good character development and good drama.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:54

Whatever else. So no problem. But like I've said, like my drama is my way to like, you know, pull my heartstrings and make me try cry and do whatever else. And so since we've been living in two different places.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:35:05

Right? Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:07

It's kind of funny that through this conversation, me realizing that my self care has been watching drama. So I started Dear Edward on Apple TV. So that's one that the author that wrote the book. So it's obviously a TV series based on the book, but the book she also wrote, she wrote a recent book that was on Oprah's Book Club. I think it might have been the hundredth pick or something like that. I think it's called hello Beautiful but I want to read. But I also heard she had this show and so I want to check out the show and realize it may not be one that Ravi would be interested in. So I started watching that show and it is a heartfelt drama which is like more likely to elicit tears and get lost in those type of things.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:49

So I have been watching a heartfelt drama while I've been away from my sweetheart because that's definitely not his thing. And I actually went and saw a movie last night that we discussed a recommendation of a friend that was definitely tear jerker. Heart wrenching, heartbreaking. Important information. It was the sound of Freedom, which is very much. It's about the children trafficking. It's very heartbreaking. Based on a true story, which makes it even more heartbreaking.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:14

But those are the things that. That my love of my life is not interested in. Heartbreaking. He goes to get lost in a different side of things and whatever else when he goes to see film and movies and stuff. Whereas I like to go process my emotions with my heartbreak and sadness when I see those things. So that has been My self maintenance is to go watch drama while I've been apart from my sweetheart, since that's not his thing to do that we normally do together.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:37

Cool.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:38

Cool.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:39

Yes. New movies, new shows.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:41

Yeah. The thing would normally be part of that. I'm desperately wanting to paint or to be creative now, so that's kind of gotten my itching to do that. So.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:50

I remember when I didn't know that you painted. Do you know what I'm gonna say?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:54

Maybe. Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:36:57

Belmont street house, back in the day. Didn't know you painted. And again, we're talking about creative expression to complete the stress cycle. The importance of the action. Right. That's what we're focusing on. And also.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:11

And also.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:12

And on your wall, there's a beautiful painting of a ballet dancer.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:18

Two ballet dancers. Yes.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:19

Yes. And I didn't know you painted. And I was like, whoa, that's an amazing, beautiful painting on your wall. Who did that? And it was me. And you said it was you, and it was so beautiful. And then you showed me other paintings that you had done and you had your space in that house and stuff. And that's when we first started to hang. Like, that's when we first moved.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:39

Met you, but I didn't know that. And like, yeah, beautiful painting. And.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:43

And you actually have a painting of mine.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:37:45

I do. I have a painting of yours at my house. And you shared that how it's very meaningful for you and to do that, that creative expression. That's awesome. So.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:55

All right, that's it. When we moved to our new house in Bend, I had to have a painting space. I miss painting. I miss painting.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:00

Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:00

And it's funny because I have friends who. It's funny. I say real artists. They are real artists. I have friends who have, like, sold paintings all around the world. And I have friends who are real artists. So it's so funny that I'm so intimidated. As much as I love painting, I don't feel like I love painting, but I don't feel of myself as a painter or an artist.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:16

I just love to do it and have a few paintings. Whereas, like, I've published a couple books, so maybe I can be an author. But like, the other artistic stuff, I'm more intimidated by.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:26

Okay, okay.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:28

Just because I know real artists.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:38:31

Define. Define risk.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:33

Real authors too. So that sounds funny. Cause I know famous authors. But, you know, that's kind of funny. But I guess I've known them since I was young. I didn't know real authors until after I'd published a book. And then I met. So then it was less intimidating because I republished a book when I met them.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:48

It was like I knew real artists that were selling paintings around the world and doing real things with art before I ever tried art. So I was already intimidated before I tried. Whereas with writing, I didn't know people who published books before I got my book published. So it was a different.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:04

Yeah, different perspectives.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:05

Isn't that weird? You're very weird.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:07

I think it was on the podcast I listened to about the up burnout, the secret of unlocking the stress cycle, but I forget if it's Emily or Amelia. I apologize, but I think one of them talked about writing romance novels. Did you know that?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:22

No, I did not know that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:24

If I'm remembering wrong, I apologize. However, I'm almost positive that's.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:28

What is it the one that's the Ph.D. or the one that conducts music? Because Amelia conducts music.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:34

Yes, that's right. I'm a twin. I apologize that I don't. I should be more definitive with my remembering here, because I'm also a fraternal twin. But I. I forget because it was a podcast, but it was just audio. Right. So I just don't remember.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:51

Yeah, I just don't remember.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:52

Oh, that's so fun.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:39:53

Oh, would you mention writing, which you've written books and they. Yeah. Mention romance novels.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:58

That's so funny. That's great. Well, we do need to wrap this up. So what should we give everyone as their grit? W. Have them try to kind of identify which of the different ways of completing the cycle is something that they really kind of connect with and need to integrate. And it might just be they need to start naming what they already.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:14

Already do. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:15

And giving themselves credit for what they're already doing. That's completing the cycle that it is no longer. I'm just sitting on the couch watching a show that makes me cry every night after the kids go to bed when I'm exhausted. That I am, in fact, completing my stress cycle for the day, processing my emotions for the day, and being mindful and actually telling yourself before you sit down to do it, that this is what I'm doing.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:40:37

Totally. This is what I'm doing. And like you said, lots of things folks are probably already doing or enjoying already and just can have a different focus and intention on these things. Yeah, that's a great one. Is figuring out what we're already doing that can be helpful or trying something different, something new.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:55

Okay, let's label some of these out. So there's the affection, which can be petting your cat for a few minutes. It can be a 20 second hug or a six second kiss. Kiss. So that's one of them. What's another one?

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:05

You got physical activity and focused deep, slow breathing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:10

Nice. There's also positive social interaction which should be something like actually deep belly laughing, connecting. So more than just, you know, just saying hi to somebody, you actually got to connect and really connect.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:23

Oh, did we say a good cry?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:25

I don't know if we said that one yet. The creative expression.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:27

Creative expression. A good, A good cry.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:30

Did we talk about the body tensing exercise where you tense up your body? I don't think we talked about that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:41:35

No, no, that was. Yeah, that was in there. Yeah. About focusing on from kind of your feet to your head, like tensing and holding different muscles, different parts of the body. It's like an intentional practice. Just laying on the floor on a bed, couch.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:55

Yes. And then we also talked about you just losing yourself in something. Whether that was show of book, like just something that you just like really get yourself. As long as you're really acknowledging that this is your way of just like letting go of the stressors and completing yourself through this cycle, that can actually be beneficial.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:11

Yep.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:12

All right. Whichever of those things that you really feel like is something you already do or you want to do to be able to really just acknowledge and start integrating that and to be able to walk away with that. So that's perfect.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:23

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:24

Well, thank you.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:24

Lots of options.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:25

Lots of options. Lots of options. And we will be back to talk a little bit more about how kind of this connects with things in bit more with the definitions around burnout and stuff like that a little bit as well. But the stress cycle is where we kind of start with because I've definitely resonated with that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:38

Yeah. Thank you for having me and for this topic because you literally bought me the book.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:47

I harassed you, made you come talk with me. I'm good like that.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:42:52

This. No, I appreciate it a lot. I mean this is super helpful to learn about and read and with many things for as long as I, I've known you. I need to listen to your suggestions and you have great thoughts and ideas. There's great benefits and this is super beneficial, this discussion and this book and this topic. So thank you. Appreciate it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:13

Thank you.

Matt McKinnon [: 00:43:14

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:15

Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoy this episode. Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us @the.grit.show. And if you aren't already following Authentic Connections podcast network @37by27, you should definitely be doing that as well. Don't forget, you are the only one of you that this world has got. And that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:40

I hope you are too.