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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

Motivation. I've always been curious about it. I can remember reading articles about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation when I was in high school because I was so curious about why we do what we do, what motivates us, how we can motivate others, and how all of that works. Because figuring out those pieces seemed kind of important. I would later go on to study psychology, social work, all those pieces. And that always seemed to be an important part of what I was learning and trying to understand about myself and about others. So when I learned about the four tendencies, at first it was this personality thing, and y'all know I like those. But as I dug deeper and learned, at its core it was about expectations, motivation, why we do what we do, don't do what we do, and how that all works together.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:56

I was hooked. And the more I learned, the more I realized Gretchen Rubin is really onto something. And this might be the missing key to a lot of different frameworks and ways of looking at things that I feel like need that little extra something to make it make sense. Ever since I finished the book, I've been walking around looking at people and conversations and putting this framework on top of them. Obviously, I had to share this with you because I knew you'd be interested. Today we can only get to two of the four tendencies, as she calls them, and we'll get to two more on an upcoming episode because there's a lot to cover and it's really good stuff. So stick around. You're gonna love this conversation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:01:45

Welcome to the Grit show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I'm your host, Shawna Rodriguez, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate the tidbits of knowledge we are sharing and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. If you've been around a little bit, you know that I tend to love things like personality quizzes, Enneagram types, all of these different tools we can use to get to know ourselves a little better. And some of them really resonate. You know, I'm a huge fan of the love languages and how that translates to appreciation languages at work.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:50

When there's something that translates well and helps us to understand ourselves better and consequently, understand how we interact with others better. It thrills me. I love it when we can see that different people interact differently and need different tools. I have a background, clinical social work, which you probably know as well. And I think sometimes when we're told this therapy is supposed to work with everyone and just do this, and it's all the same for everybody as long as they have this diagnosis or need. And it felt sometimes like it didn't always work the same. And I would go look at the nitty gritty and the research and like, oh, it worked 95% of the time with the 20% of people that actually finished the protocol. So there was always those little caveats, right? And for me, I wanted to understand what those other differences were.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:47

It seems that there was a way to figure out a little more information to break things down a little further. And if we could just figure out a little more, we can make it even more successful. And so there's frameworks, but the frameworks often just need a little more information to work properly. And that might be because I'm a questioner. This is a new framework that I discovered because of Gretchen Rubin and her work on the four tendencies, as she called them. I, of course, want a better and different name for them because, well, I'm a questioner. I'm okay with the labels for the categories, but I think they're a little bit less about tendencies or personalities and more just that basis of their way that we respond to expectations, and we need to keep them in that narrow area in order to not think of them too broadly and to understand how somebody who is a questioner can be so different from somebody else whos a questioner and how one upholder can be so different from another upholder. Right? So there are four different areas, and they are upholders, questioners, rebels, and obligers.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:03

And I did not say them in the order of how large the sample sizes are. I thought it was very helpful that in her book on the four tendencies, that she actually gave us the information on how the breakdown is of those areas. So for obligers, they're actually about 41% of the population. So as you look around, the majority of people you know and possibly yourself is an obliger. The next largest is 24% as questioners. So closer to the quarter, you would expect that how things would kind of flush out in the end. The next larger group is upholders at 19%, and the smallest group is rebels. The interesting thing for me is that the obligers have a tendency to have a thing called obliger rebellion, which can make them feel like rebels at times, and that can make that a little tricky.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:05:56

So I wonder how much of that is, like, we have less rebels, but we have a lot of obligers in rebellion sometimes. And so that might be how it evens out a little bit more in the end. Right. And so the other piece about it is that I didn't understand this until I actually read the book, is that each of those areas has a leaning towards one of the other areas, which helps it to make a little bit more sense, if that helps. Like, that they all lean against one of the other ones. And so I'm a questioner. So I kind of lean towards either upholder or I lean towards a rebel. And for upholders, they lean towards questioner or they lean towards obligers.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:43

And obligers lean towards upholder or they lean towards rebel. And rebels lean towards questioner or obliger. And so because it leans one way or the other, that kind of, like, makes it so that people kind of blur a little bit one way or the other sometimes. And it also means that there is a polar opposite for each of them. So me as a questioner, the polar opposite for me is obligers. And historically, even though they're the largest part of the population, sometimes I have the hardest time understanding obligers. I will be the friend that will say to you, like, then just don't say you're going to do it. Like, don't obligate yourself.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:24

Why would you obligate yourself? I'm a questioner. Why would you say you're going to do that? So because of that. And upholders are direct opposition to rebels. Right. And so they don't understand the rebel mindset on things. And so it's been a valuable thing for me to learn a little bit more about. So because of that, I thought we would spend a little time. There is so much to it that I couldn't possibly fit it all into one solo episode.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:54

So we're going to dive into it a little today, and then we're going to dive into it a little bit in probably a couple of weeks because I think there's going to be interruption of something else that's going to come in to play that I want to fit in in a certain timeline. So you might have to hang on to get the second half of it, but it is good information. So I promise you're going to want to come back and hear the rest of it. So today we're going to do a little more unpacking around questioners, partially because, well that's mine so I can speak to it a little bit better probably. And the holder partially because that's a little easier to sum up and to cover. And then we're going to cover in the next one obligers, which is the larger percentage of people and rebels. And I partly put those two together because of the element of obliger rebellion. That is something that is important for us to talk about, I think.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:48

And because the obligers is who I had the most time to unpack a little bit because it's furthest away from me. But for most folks, the more challenging one to work with sometimes can be rebels, even though I don't have as hard a time with that, possibly because it's right next to me and I have a harder time with working with obligers. It's kind of funny how those things work. So yeah, we're going to chat about that a little bit more and I'm curious what you might see for you and where you see yourself in these categories just from the conversation. And then it's fabulous that Gretchen Rubin has actually devised a really easy test that you can go take to be able to see where you land. But in the end it really matters. How you see yourself is most important. So even if it's not super clear on the test where you see yourself as probably the most important and again, as we hear all of this, there's that piece of that leaning so that you can be a questioner and you can lean towards being a web rebel, you can be an upholder and you can lean towards being obliger.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:09:53

And I feel like it's nothing black and white because I'm a questioner. So, so everything's all black and white. Gretchen Rubin who, who came up with this framework and this way of thinking which is wonderful and fabulous and I really value the work that she did on this, is an upholder. For upholders things are very a little bit more black and white and where they land and that's one of the questions that she has that you can like if you want just a question to see which category somebody falls into. If they're rigid chances are they're probably fall more into upholder. But again it's about expectations. So then im not positive that is the best question to ask because sometimes I think that you can be an upholder but theres other personality tendencies that would make you be a more rigid upholder when this is really about expectations and with an upholder. Thats one of the ones were discussing today, that they are good at adhering to internal and external expectations, largely because of the fact that they just need to know what the rules are and what the expectations are and they can uphold to them.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:58

So there's somebody that as long as it's clear to them what they need to do, they can do them. Whether it's an internal decision, this is what they need to do, or an external, this is what they need to do. They can do what those things are. So they would have more challenges and situations with perhaps someone like me who's a questioner, it's like, well, you could do this or you could do this, or this might be another way to try it. It would be hard for them in those circumstances because they just need to know what to do and they'll do it. So they need clear expectations and then they can hold to the expectations once it's clear for them what they need to do. So if I had a child who was an upholder and I'm a questioner and I'm giving them all sorts of different ways to do it, or if I was a rebel and I don't like to have expectations and I'm not giving them expectations, if they were, you know, I'd like, well, I'm not gonna tell my kid what time to go to bed right. Then that would be hard for them because there's not clear expectations of when to do and when not to do things.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:53

Right. So that would be a challenging circumstance for somebody who's an upholder. Or if I was the supervisor of somebody and I was a questioner, or I was a rebel and they were a upholder, and they just need to know what to do. And it's like, you know, however you want to do it, just like, get it back to me whenever you get it down. Like, her works, it's fine. Would be challenging because they just need clear expectations and they're the person that can follow internal and external expectations. I remember once, love of my life, you might have heard of him a time or two has said something to me about how like, yeah, I just want to do something, I just do it. I don't understand how it's, he meant it, like, to be supportive about, like, I don't understand why it's so hard for you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:38

But he really didn't. And until I read this book, I didn't fully understand what he was saying. It felt like a little bit of a sting, you know, like, oh, oh. But like, doesn't everyone have a hard time figuring out how to do things and have to look at all the possible options before they do things? No, he doesn't. He just decides. Like, he decides he's going to go to the gym and he will get up and go to the gym and it's that simple. And that's why he was an elite level, competed internationally athlete. Right.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:13

Just this is what I need to do. This is what I'm going to do. You give me. That's. But that's what he needs. He needs a coach or somebody that tells him, like, this is what I need to do. And he can internalize that. He can decide he's going to do it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:13:24

He doesn't need somebody that makes sure he showed up at practice. He doesn't need to make somebody else making sure it happens. He just needs to know to do it and he does it. So he needs a prescription, a plan, but as soon as he has it, he does it. And it's just that simple. So he can decide and it's done. And that's amazing about him and confounding to me and possibly to others. And that's why he went to a elite college back east for undergraduate work, like, and did just fine figuring that stuff out and studied by himself, just fine.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:02

Whereas I was somebody who stay up late and like, had to cope with strategies for, you know, different, different ways of doing things. So an upholder just needs to be clear. They can have internal expectations, external expectations. They just need to have it clear and they can stick to it and they can just get it done and that can be that simple. It's also one of those things where he can decide what's best for him and hold to it and evaluate those pieces better than other people can. To some extent, he's somebody that can decide if he's going to see people or do things and preserve his own well being. To some extent. I mean, it's still like a balance piece, and that's for upholders.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:45

That's kind of the way things work. Like they're able to have an awareness of what their internal expectations are and to stick to those. Whereas, like, when we'll get into the different types for obligers, internal expectations don't register. They aren't able to do things for themselves. They aren't able to. Like I said, Robbie decides to do intermittent fasting. He just starts doing it. He doesn't even have to tell me he's doing it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:10

He just does it. And he had to. He's got a rough, cold, flu, not feeling good thing. And he had to, like, stop and check himself because he was doing so good of sticking to his intermittent fasting. Like, oh, I'm sick. I don't have to stick to this anymore. And then he stops, like, once he, like, just registers, oh, I got to change this map. And then he just does it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:15:29

And. But he has to stop and, like, readjust the framework and say, oh, I can do this now. And he does it. Whereas somebody else, like, just deciding you were going to do intermittent fasting, I had to, like, evaluate, decide, convince myself, and once I was convinced, I could decide to do intermittent fasting and stick with it, and then that's how I had to make my decisions, which we'll get into in a minute. But they're able to do that. It's also a matter of, there's a really good example from the book that I'll give to you, because the author is an upholder, where she was coming to the west coast for a long weekend to visit family, and she decided that they would just stay on East coast time. Cause she didn't want to just back to East coast, to West coast time and then back again for a short visit. So they ate their dinner at 04:00 p.m.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:19

and went to bed at 07:00 p.m. during their visit because that was what was important to her. Like, her and her child's schedule, staying on schedule and going back and being on schedule and not having to deal with them, being on, dealing with jet lag for that trip. And it wasn't about the other people that were visiting and be able to participate in all the things that were going on and having that time with them wasn't what was most important. Like, she was able to discern that, like, her internal needs were more important than the external. What was best for everybody else, what was most convenient for everyone else, that her internal needs also registered on that, whereas, like, with an obliger, like, what everyone else needed and what everybody else wanted would be most important always instead of what they needed themselves, which was the rest, and to not have things disruptive for that period of time and everything else. So it's one of these things that there's that balance that they can hold to and make those decisions. And that brings us over to the questioners.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:18

And the questioners are able to balance internal and external motivators for why we do things, right. So I'm able to balance if this is for somebody else or for myself, but it's probably very confusing to other people why I do what I do and what motivates me, because a lot of people might think that I'm an obliger, especially when it comes to my family, because I do do a lot of things for my family. And I could probably name some of the people in my world who think that I'm an obliger because I do so much for my family. But I actually question and evaluate and make my determinations and have to come to peace with why I'm doing what I'm doing and what's behind all the things that I'm doing when I make all my decisions. And it could quite possibly be very exhausting. And I'm very grateful for all my friends that let me question and work through and walk through everything that I'm deciding. And I could actually, in my head, I could go through and tell you now that I've read this book and, like, learn more about this, like, which of my friends are obligers, which my friends are upholders, which my friends are rebels, and which friend I call for which thing, because they do handle things differently and they advise and walk me through things differently. And ultimately, I don't decide based on any of them and their positioning, based on me and the evidence information that I've taken in and for me to do intermittent fasting, even when I decided that y'all were part of that conversation with me, when I got to have my amazing opportunity to meet Jen Stevens on the podcast and talk it through with her, and then I, you know, read her entire book and looked at the research and made my decision to do it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:18:54

And it wasn't about losing weight. It was about all the health benefits is why I started doing that. And it was very beneficial for me to do that. And that's why I decided to do that, was because of all those benefits. And she did a beautiful job, which I don't know Jen Stevens, I've just got to meet her and talk with her and think highly of her. But she could very well be a questioner, just like me. And the fact that, like, the evidence is what swayed her and her decision to do intermittent fasting as well. And like she said, it's like heart and contemplation easy in acting, like once you've decided to do it, that it's easy to do it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:28

And that could possibly be because shes also, like me, a questioner, that, like, once you think through and figure out, like, this is why Im doing it, its easier to hold to it and do something like that. And thats the way that I operate around so many things. It can also be challenging as an entrepreneur when Im having to, like, pick out all the systems for my business that Im questioning and evaluating and second guessing and thinking through everything that I'm doing and using and evaluating if it's the best one to use and if it's the right one to use. And that's why I'm going with it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So when I make decisions, I make them based on the information and why I'm going to do them and how that's going to best fit the situation. And that is my motivation to do things. So that's one reason that I do not do well with exercise, quite possibly because it doesn't results in weight loss. And so I need to have the arguments of it is good for brain health, for mood, like, it actually, I need to see like, evidence of what it's doing to make things better for me, for me to be willing to utilize exercise and get my exercise done more frequently.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:42

Cause I have to have real reasons why I'm doing it right. And one of the funnest examples that I have around being a questioner is that my nephew, who is only three, came to stay with me for a period of four days while the rest of his family was driving out of state for a memorial service. And so he needed to not be in the car for 17 hours each direction, 34 hours total to do that. So he came and stayed with me and my husband, and he'd stopped taking naps and was definitely a frustration for his parents, especially his mom. And when he came here, he did, he took naps every day that he was here. And it could be emotional exhaustion because he missed his family so much, because he did miss his family very, very much. And he was in a strange environment, all those different things, right? So that could be why he took a nap, but also his aunt, who's a questioner, and somebody could think of the magic of, no, it was not magic. It was not magic.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:21:47

I was not magical with him. It could be that his aunt, who's also a questioner, that when he was being wily and not going down, I would go and talk to him about how his body didn't listen when he was tired and how I needed his body to listen and his body needed to rest. If he could listen and then talk to him about how much better his body listened after he'd rested and would have conversations with him about how he could breathe how his body felt better and it made it easier for him to sleep. And when he was making noises very loudly, crying, screaming, etcetera, that he was making his body get worked out, but it was harder for him to sleep. And I would give him all of the reasons and because I am a questioner and question everything, right? So I would give him all the reasons and he took the naps. And it was so funny because when I had this conversation with his mom, it so happened that he hadn't taken naps with her up until that day when she told him that what Aunt Sean had said about his body being tired and. And how his body didn't listen when he started and he took a nap that day. So three, which I cannot.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:54

I used to work with early childhood and I am, like shocked by this and we don't have long term evidence for this, but I have a suspicion my three year old nephew, who has a lot of other things going on, right. That in fact, he might be a questioner and that might be part of what's going on with him, that he actually needs to have explanations for things and that actually might help him, but not everyone else, because he might have other people around him that are upholders, that are obligers, that don't need a explanations about why we do things. And that why might actually help him have motivation to listen and to do things. And that him listening to me is not because I'm magical, Aunt Shawna, it's because I'm also a questioner. So I annoy my upholder husband with my explanations for everything because he doesn't need them. But for my nephew, those might actually be helpful that I give those. And that with some of the kids that I've been magic with over my career, it's because I naturally give the reasons why. And maybe some of those kids that come across as being difficult and defiant maybe aren't rebels, maybe aren't other things.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:24:20

Maybe they're just questioners and they just need that reason. And that's just something that I automatically offer because that's something that I automatically seek. So if you have somebody who's asking why, why, why, it might actually be that for their motivation, they need that why? And that I'm somebody. This is a funny thing. This is a funny thing because again, this is brand new that I'm learning this about myself. And I think it's so entertaining and intriguing to be learning it, right? So it's this. I talked to my coaching clients about this. This is something that's been a long term thing with me that I was notorious about not turning in my mileage sheets and my reimbursement sheets at my jobs.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:25:08

Because when it came to my list of things to do, because I have long lists of things to do, I tend to be somebody who has a lot on my plate that that would, like it moved to the bottom. And it might seem like I'm an obliger. Like, that rewards me. And I'm so busy rewarding, taking care of everyone else's expectations, meeting their expectations, taking care of everyone else, I don't take care of myself. Cause that's reward for me. However, it might have really been like that there wasn't enough of a reason that I needed to get that done or that it needed to be done by a certain date. And so it needed to be like, if you don't get this n, you're not gonna get reimbursed. If you getting this in late makes things harder for accounting because things are out of sync, it complicates our budget because we don't know how much we've spent.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:25:57

Like, those type of things. If somebody would have said that to me, might have motivated me to get those things in sooner. And those are the type of things that motivate me. And strangely, with my bookkeeping now, I'm so much better about my bookkeeping now than I was before. I do have a bookkeeper that doesn't do that much for me. She reconciles my book and she meets with me, and I thought it was meeting with me more regularly because the fact that body doubling something because I have ADHD, right. However, I really think it is because I better understand the pieces and the reason behind stuff and how it all comes together. And I see the bigger picture and the benefits of doing this stuff and how much I can access information, understand things better because I do these steps and I understand it more, and I see the reasons and I see the bigger picture, and I'm so much better about doing my bookkeeping because of it.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:45

So I need to see how it all fits together and what the benefits are of it and how it all comes together, and that motivates me to get the whole picture and get it done and get it to come together. And so it's hard for me in business when I have things that if I do this here, eventually it'll lead to this way over here. But I can't see the full picture and how it all comes together. And it's not motivating for me to do all those pieces. So I need to have about understanding or be better about reminding myself how this leads to this and the benefit of this is this other piece so that I can better motivate myself. And so that's part of the benefits. And we'll talk more in the next podcast about that piece about knowing this about yourself is how you can better figure out how you can motivate yourself. Right? So knowing that I need the reason is important for me to understand that I can be motivated once I know the reasons.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:45

So if I'm not feeling motivated, but I want to get something done, like, let's say I want some of them. Like, I really do want to eat better, I really do want to work out, but I need to figure out those things and those pieces. And so, like, for my nephew, with me talking to him about how his body listens better when he gets sleep and when he gets sleep and he listens better, his body listens better, he plays better with his friends, he has more fun with his friends, he gets along with them better, and he has better relationships, and he has more fun at school when he listens and when his body can listen. So if he rests and his body can listen, hell, have more fun at school and he'll have more friends. And that's why he needs to take a nap, right? So as an adult, if I'm not getting myself to go to bed at a decent hour, I need to have the same talk with myself that I have with my three year old nephew to say to myself that if you go to bed now, you're going to feel better tomorrow, you're going to have better interactions. And you know how you were snappy with the love of your life, who you enjoy so much and cherish and you don't want to talk to like that because you're tired of, you won't be tired and talking to him like that if you go to bed. So you need to go to bed so that you can have better interactions with a person you care about most in this world and enjoy your time with him. Go to bed.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:09

So those are the type of things I need to tell myself to go to bed. Instead of like, why am I still sitting here scrolling, why am I still doing this? Right? If I want to motivate myself to go to bed, I need to come up with those type of reasons instead of just saying, like, why am I still sitting here? Why am I still sitting here? Like, this is ridiculous, I'm still sitting here. I need to just go to bed. Or if I can't stop eating. Whatever. Let's see. What's the treat that I keep getting myself into these days? There's some. The australian licorice.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:29:36

Australian licorice ones where they have, like, the mango flavors. Anyway, so australian licorice, that's in my cupboard. So if I want to stop eating the australian licorice and I don't want to be having that sugary snack, I need to tell myself, like, the reasons why I shouldn't be having that sugary snack, that there's an actual reason is right now, I'm not thinking of a good actual reason, but let's say that I don't brush my teeth afterwards, and it's gonna. I. Do I have a crown? Do you do? Guys, not. Not. No, not just a crown. I have a dental implant that's way bigger than a crown.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:06

I have a dental implant that I had to get, and I had to get dental implant. Like, oh, it's been, like, before rubin air together. So it's been, like, seven years ago. I had to have a dental implant. And when you get a dental implant, you have to, like, have no tooth for a period of time. At a period of time. Had no tooth. I actually went to visit my friends back in Boston with no tooth, like, missing tooth.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:30

I felt very self conscious. I felt like I couldn't smile and be myself because I, like, had a missing tooth while I was waiting to get the dental implant put in. So I should not be eating sugary sweets before bed. Cause that's bad for my teeth. And so if I want to get myself to not eat the sugary sweets before. This is very helpful, y'all. This is very helpful because I do need to be telling myself I shouldn't be eating the sugar easy before bed. So that's how I can get myself to not have sugary series before bed is to say, like, do you remember what it felt like to be self conscious when you were visiting friends you hadn't seen in a long time, and you didn't want to smile big because you had a missing tooth where you're waiting for a dental implant and you were so self conscious? Don't eat sugary sweet.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:13

Super bad, because that's getting little sugar bugs in your teeth, and that's what's doing damage to your gums and your gum line that eventually might mean you had to have a dental implant. And that's the kind of concrete reason that I, as a questioner, need to have to motivate me to do things like not eat sugary soups before bed. But I need to dig for those reasons as a questioner, that's what I need. So if you are a questioner, then you need to actually get those reasons to get yourself motivated to do things, whatever that thing is. If you're not getting your oil change in your car, wow, I have a lot of things I'm not doing. You're not getting your oil change in your car or I need to get my tires rotated. That's actually the more important thing is a tie. That oil change just like, barely needs to happen.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:31:56

The tires getting rotated. I've had to buy a new set of tires because I wasn't getting them rotated regularly and they were unevenly wearing. And so I have all wheel drive so that I had to replace them all. And that expense is not an expense I want right now. And I have to have good snow tires because of where I live. So I need to get my tires rotated before that happens. And so remembering that expense and that reason why probably motivate me on Saturday to go get my tires rotated. So glad we're having this conversation.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:24

This is so valuable. As a questioner, I need to have reasons as a motivator. So if you're a questioner, or if your partner is a questioner and they aren't getting things done and you would like to motivate them, that is the way to motivate them, is to find the reminders come with the reasons why, so that you can say, like, hey, love, like, isn't it time to get the tires rotated on our vehicle? And I go, yeah, yeah, I'll get to it. I got all going on and like, well, do you remember two years ago when we ended up having to pay for all new tires and remember how much inflation's gone up and how expensive tires are? You have to all new tires because one of them had worn unevenly because we hadn't got them rotated. So maybe, Orlando, I just heard Sean talking about the podcast about how she had to do that. You know, if you don't have the reason because you've done it, hopefully you haven't had that experience. Hopefully that's just me. That happens, too.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:19

So, you know, so maybe that's a thing to happen because we don't want to have to pay for all new tires because one of them warrant evenly because we didn't get them rotated. And so if you do that, then you have the reasons to do it, and that can be more motivating to do that. And that's how you have to work with that. So if I want myself to get something moved up on my list and I want to get more organized and do that to motivate myself, I need to come up with the reasons and give myself that space. And if I'm getting analysis paralysis because that's a more common factor for that percentage of us that are questioners, then we do need to get a time limit on the analyzing and limit ourselves to how much we're looking at, because we can get overwhelmed with our reasons behind things and then had to make a decision based on those reasons, because we also have that danger as well. And if you have kids that are like that, like I said, like coming up with those, even if it's a little reason to do this, I had this great amusing conversation with a dear friend back east who was going through the situation with their child. And it was so funny in our conversation for us to come up with, yeah, you didn't have a reason. And, yeah, that's kind of, yeah, you weren't that fixed on that, doing that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:28

You're just kind of going with because I said so or because dad said so and so, it did get kind of complicated, huh? So to have the reasons and to like to stick with the reasons, if you have a question or child that, especially when they get to their teenage years, you gotta be ready for that. That you need to have a reason. There's a curfew, and because I said so, it's just gonna be a lot of button heads. Right? So to have those reasons for those things and to think about that a little bit, and for the upholders that, to have clarity on what is the expectations, right? That's like the biggest thing we said they need is that that clarity to have that so they know what's expected and doing that. And if you have a partner who is an upholder and you are an obliger or you are a rebel or you are a questioner, your process might be interfering with that. And it's nice because they're kind of simple. You just gotta be clear. And if you have somebody who's, you've heard the term passive aggressive, right? And so if you have somebody who gets most frustrated with being passive aggressive, it would be an upholder.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:35:37

They just need to be clearly told what is or isn't expected. And so if you just hint at things, you just be clear. So, being clear, but also understanding that they're still going to uphold their inner pieces as well. And that if something is in conflict, that the inner might win out and so sometimes they need to do what they need to do for them before they need to do what's being expected them externally as well and to respect that and to trust that they'll get to the external expectations once they've met the internal expectations as well. Oh, this is, this is a fun example. This is a fun example. I'm sure my love of mine that I share it, that if hes hungry and hes out that hell stop and eat even if theres an expectation or in my mind im expecting were going to have dinner when he gets home. You know what I mean? Hell eat at 04:00 when hes done with golfing or something like that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:31

And Im thinking were going to eat together at six and hes not hungry because he ate at 04:00 right. So like the meeting, the thing to eat, hell eat then. Whereas somebody who was like an obliger wouldnt eat and would starve and would come home. And then if I was maybe even as a questioner, like I might reason myself that I'm going to eat when I'm hungry and eat earlier too, right? So an obliger would like wait until the other person came home to be able to eat. And so that's the type of stuff that, you know, you have to be aware of that it's very good to clearly communicate those expectations and let them know because they will follow what they understand to be that. But the communication of those things is very important with them. So I think that kind of covers that. I'd be curious because we're, we're having some time between these episodes.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:37:21

You should take the time to send me a note. I will make sure that I actually put the email for the Gret show inside the show notes. So if you want to send me a question around this or what this brought up for you and I will actually try to address it in the next episode since we have some time between them. If you have specific question or example that you want to share because this is so fascinating for me. I'm really enjoying it. And I'll put in the show notes also the link to be able to take the test that Gretchen Ribbon has. And I'll put the information for the book. If you wanted to actually get a copy of the book and check it out and it's available in audible, I probably can get it from your library as well to check it out because it's really intriguing.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:00

And we'll get into more of the other ones because again, obliger is typically responding to external expectations and it has a hard time responding to internal expectations. Questioner is responding to, like, they just need, they just need to understand why. And that's how I broke it down. Like, a little bit different than how it was broken down in the book for me. I kind of arrived at questioners just need to know and understand the why. So we're about the why and upholders are about the what. They just need to know what. And they can follow the what.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:35

And obligers are about the who, and the who was not usually them. They're doing it for the who. They're doing it for somebody else externally is who they're doing it for. And the rebels are. They're doing it for the choice and freedom. I want to understand that a little bit better. Like, I feel like I can fit them into this somewhere into the, for, into the, that format of the who what why piece a little bit more. But they are responding to identity as well.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:01

They're responding to identity is an important part for their motivators and who they are as well, and how they want to be seen. Who they want to be and how they want to be seen. That identity piece is important to them as well. And so that's largely what they're responding to. And they have a hard time with expectations. And that's just something that they just, expectations, internal or external, is something that they just are challenged with and pull away from. Whereas, like, upholders, like, they grab onto, they feel comfort inside of expectations, right? That's where they thrive. Give me the expectations, I'm good.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:33

And rebels feel constrained by expectations and don't want the expectations. And then we have the bligers that they go with a who and external expectations. And we have our questioners over here that are the reasons behind the why, and then they can handle the expectations. And so really, this framework really is around the expectations and how we respond to them. And it doesn't say there's so much about us that they don't say, right? So somebody, we were talking, I was talking to my husband about this, and we were talking about something wonderful. And our thoughts about were they fit? And they were thinking they were rebel for this reason. And I was like, I think they're questionable for this reason, but they have this big heart. I'm like, big heart doesn't mean you're automatically an obliger.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:17

Like, you can be a big heart and want to do things for people, and you could still be a questioner or a rebel, or you could still be an upholder. Like, you can be all of those things and have a big heart. So it's not like, it's not your love for others that is determined by that. I know lots of people in each of those categories are just very loving and outgoing and people people. But expectation piece that makes it challenging. And I think that sometimes when we try to marry it to other personality traits, that makes it a little bit more complicated because then we think, oh, if somebody is like this and they must be this person. But it's really largely around expectations. So its intriguing though, and its been fun for me to put this into place and think back to when I was doing therapy and was meeting with children and families and that curiosity around how much of the behavior was like the resistance to expectations, the need for justification for expectations or the need for external triggers for the expectations that were the people, what we were trying to work with.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:41:21

Right. And how much that was the missing puzzle piece when making things be more effective. Because in the book she talks about with healthcare and how with a lot of every profession can have different individuals in it, but if you have like a doctor who's a polar, I think they can just tell you what to do and you should just do it because I told you and you just do it. And that's how it works. Right? And a lot of people don't follow medical expectations or directions. And I'm one of them who can be like question what I'm being told by medical professionals and have had experience with them not having the answers and not resolving things for me and being very confused by them. And so part of that could be my questioning nature. Part of that is because there's just this expectation that I just tell you do this and you just do this blindly and what more might be needed? And some of that is for obligers.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:17

That needs to be an external motivation piece of work, something plugged in to make it happen, to do it. And with the questioners we actually need some understanding of the why to do it and to make that happen. And so, and I get that all the time. I was just with somebody who was telling me about their experience, actually with a pet and they were given this medication but nobody told them why. And so they just didn't get it because they had all this other stuff that they were taking care of as well. And I was like, well, I know which one they, which one of these four they might fall into because they didn't fulfill that expectation because they didn't understand the why behind it. And so looking around when you're with others, and when the expectations don't get followed through, what might be the piece that's missing or this part of the puzzle for you to better understand that as well. So thank you so much.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:08

This has been a valuable conversation. And again, send me a note if you have thoughts or questions and we'll talk more about it very soon. I value the time we shared together today. Thank you for making time to be here and to continue taking steps towards growth and bringing more ease into your life. I'd love for us to stay connected on Instagram, @shawnapodcasts or @the.grit.show. There's even a link in bio at the where you can send me an email to let me know what you thought of today's episode. Hearing from you helps to make the effort that goes into producing these episodes worthwhile. After all, you're why I'm here, and since it's been a while since you've heard this, you are the only one of you that this world has got, and that really does mean something.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:44:04

I hope you realize that I'll be back again soon, and I hope you're following along or subscribed so that you'll know and be here too.