Scrappy Rough Drafts in Writing and Life w/ Donna Barker -18

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Shawna Rodrigues 0:01

What do you think of when I say, scrappy first draft. You'd probably think of a paper you have to write in high school, or perhaps the book you started. Today, I get to speak with a USA Today bestselling author who published her first book on the eve of turning 50. She has a book for authors on Mindset with the title, Scrappy First Draft. In today's conversation though, we managed to apply this way of thinking to even more things.

Shawna Rodrigues 0:32

Welcome to The Grit Show. Growth on purpose. We're glad you found us. I'm Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to have you join me on today's journey as part of this community, growing together as seekers and thrivers.

Shawna Rodrigues 0:47

Donna Barker has spent the majority of her 30 year career as a self employed communications expert supporting progressive nonprofit organizations in Canada. She's also worked as a small business mentor on contracts with Canada's largest credit union, coaching dozens of aspiring entrepreneurs, helping them write business plans and cash flow projections to attain small business loans. She also has an alter ego, Danika Bloom. That's where the USA Today bestselling romance author comes in. Today, she blends her communications and business background with her passion for working with romance authors. And that is what we'll talk about more today. Author Ever After is Danika is online community that helps other romance authors turn their writing hobby into an income generating business, creating happily ever afters. We must call her Donna in today's conversation, but sometimes just for fun, we'll add in Danika Bloom. Welcome to the show, Donna. Thank you for being here.

Donna Barke 1:44

Thank you so much, Shawna. It's funny I, one of the, one of the very first emails that I send to readers who sign up for my author list is, has got the subject line, I use their first name, and it says if that's really your name, and I explain how I use a pen name as a romance author, and why I use a pen name as a romance author. And I cannot tell you how many people write back and say, actually, it's not my real name. And then they'll tell me their stories about why they use fake names. It's fun. It's so fun.

Shawna Rodrigues 2:15

That is really fun. I think that's great. I think that sometimes I think that people are confused about why writers use pen name. Do you want to help people understand why do writers use pen names?

Donna Barke 2:25

There are lots of reasons. Some do it because for instance, I work with one romance author who is, works in advertising, and she has clients and she doesn't want her clients to know who she is. Because that is, it just, it's not a good fit for the type of work that she does in her career. For me, I'm really, so nobody knows. Like, we as romance authors don't know what her real name is. And her clients don't know what her romance name is. So she's really, really careful about keeping that. Myself, I'm Donna and Danika, I have books published under both. And that is a really good reason why authors have more than one name, more than one pen name, and or their real name and their pen name. Because when you're marketing books, they get, so if I have a nonfiction book as Donna called Scrappy Rough Draft. And if people are looking at that, and then seeing a bunch of steamy romance, it's going to mess up the algorithms. It's a marketing thing, right? So as Donna, I write nonfiction, and that is my, the world that I worked in as a, as a consultant to nonprofit organizations, but as a steamy romance author, I am Danica and it's, it's a, it's a strategy that just helps keep the two businesses clean. But when I'm talking to people, they know that I'm both but machines can't know that I'm both. So that's like, yeah, the machines have to be kept in the dark.

Shawna Rodrigues 3:51

Yeah, machines get easily confused. And that's something so, I don't think I've ever talked about this on my podcast. But so, I do have a book, Beyond the Pear Blossoms, which is written, it's women's fiction. And that is written with my name, Shawna Rodrigues. And then I do have a series that is written with my pen name. And my pen name is, Avery Lawrence. And the Lawrence is my fiance's last name is Lawrence. And when we get married, I am going to keep my name because I've worked darn hard for it and have a lot under it. But my pen name is his last name. So it's so cute because he takes, he's taken the book to work and talks at work, all the time about my pen name and my stuff, a small town sweet romance, very sweet stuff with a cute dog that he loves named Boots. But he'll talk about, about that. And it's so cute. He talks about it so much at work. And again, it's very much like you said like, the brand difference because women's fiction does not have the sweet happy endings that small Tennessee romance does. And so again, we don't want people getting confused when they're looking for one or the other and the computers and the algorithms. And so that's the reason why there's two different names on it, but it's so cute how much he talks about on the one that has his last name.

Donna Barke 4:58

I really love, love, love that. My husband has not read anything that I've written.

Shawna Rodrigues 5:03

Really?

Donna Barke 5:04

Not a word. No. He has no interest in reading my books.

Shawna Rodrigues 5:09

That's so cute. So my fiance, he read on Beyond the Pear Blossoms, which is women's fiction. So it's very much about the emotional journey, it's very, a little heavier, a little emotional, whatever else.

Donna Barke 5:18

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues 5:19

And he's not, that's not his thing. Like he loves to read. But that's not his thing. But he read it because he loves me. And he did that for me. But the other one I didn't expect him to like, at all. And he actually loves it. He's like, Well, it's kind of like romantic comedy. It's very sweet. It's very cute. So he actually likes that one, which surprised me. I didn't expect that at all.

Donna Barke 5:36

You know, I'm not surprised only because I have had this experience in my, in my real life, in my Donna community, like, literally a small town in British Columbia, a little village of like, 200 people. I know, almost everybody, and they're really supportive and friendly people. And the number of them have bought and read at least my first romance because it takes place in a town that is very much like my village. And the number of times they've said, I don't read romance, and then they get to the end and they'll say, Wow, I'm really surprised. That was just a really good story. And it happened to have this romance in it, right? Like, romance?

Shawna Rodrigues 6:13

Yeah,

Donna Barke 6:13

is just a good story that has love as kind of the core driver. And isn't that what life is, too? You know?

Shawna Rodrigues 6:21

Yeah.

Donna Barke 6:22

So when people say, you know, I don't read romance, I think, well, it's probably because you haven't read romance yet. If you give it a chance, you'd probably find that it's not dissimilar to other stories that you read.

Shawna Rodrigues 6:34

Yes, yeah. Well, the story, my story opens, like with a, a fire happening and action, and all that too, so you know what I mean? So it's kind of little action in there, too. So maybe that's and there's like a little town event, a little town fair and stuff. So who knows? Maybe that's, maybe that's part of it. But it has a little bit of those things.

Donna Barke 6:50

I love that.

Shawna Rodrigues 6:51

But yes, yeah. So that's the reason why I tell people that it's kind of like, like, there's Ann Taylor. And there's loft, and they're both the same. They just have a different name so you can tell the difference when you go shopping.

Donna Barke 7:03

Exactly. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues 7:04

So yes, yeah, that's not what I expected to start. But that's like an important and important little tidbit to get on the side. So, a large part of our conversation today, I hope to kind of touch on, you had some exciting transitions through your life at different ages and stages. And I would love to kind of start with like, your original transition of your first novel. That you publishing it on the eve of turning 50 and kind of where you were at that stage?

Donna Barke 7:30

Yeah, it was literally, it almost literally was the eve. It was two weeks before I turned 50. I published my first which I had started writing the year I turned 40. So it took 10 years. And the story behind that was my dad, so I wrote this this novel. And it ultimately never became a novel because it was my first book. And first books are often, you're learning, right? That's, we don't need to share those in the world. But over the course of the decade, I took that story and I massaged it and I worked it and I came up with another story. There's an expression called writing from the scar not the wound. And that first draft was written right after my husband of 15 years decided that he was in love with a different woman. So I wrote this, like, I was caught drinking scotch with strangers. And it was very much writing from the bloody wound of having been left and so, over time in my healing, I was able to take that experience and rewrite it as as a humorous book, women's fiction paranormal, called Mother Teresa's Advice for Jilted Lovers in which every man dies, but it's funny, because I'm like writing from the scar instead of the oozy, gooey wound.

Shawna Rodrigues 8:48

You could find the humor then.

Donna Barke 8:49

Exactly, I could find the humor in it. But I started working on that one, because my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And he had had this desire to write a book that he had never fulfilled. And since I had written one, and I was a writer, like a technical writer for my whole career, I said, Alright, why don't we write our books together? So he and I became accountability buddies. And every week we would share chapters, we would send them back and forth. He was reading my paranormal women's fiction and just like, like, questioning how he could have had a child who had such murderous intent towards men. And then I was reading the story that he wrote, which was kind of a Clive Cussler, James Patterson, like, thriller, and I'm like, okay, like, Prime Minister of Canada, you better be careful because I think my dad's coming for you, right? So much, so much fun. And we finished our drafts almost at the same time. I'd written about 60,000 words, he'd written almost 100,000 words, and, and then he got too sick to carry on writing. And we both put our books aside and time passed. And I stopped. Like I, I had had this goal of a being published author, and I realized I wanted to be a published author by the time I was 50. And I picked it up again and thought, you know, like, Dad would not be impressed that I just let this sit here. And I'm almost 50. And for goodness sake, I've been doing this for like, 10 years. So I was afraid, I really was afraid that people would read the book, not like the book. And by extension, not like me, right? Like, there was definitely that fear of being judged and so on. So anyway, ultimately, I just had to swallow it. And it was there's, there's a freedom that comes, I have to take, there's a freedom that, that for me has come with every 10 year, decade, right? Like, turning 30, I had my son and suddenly like, I felt like an adult at 30. In my 20s, I didn't feel like an adult. I was still a kid, I was a kid pretendin, right? I was a married kid pretending. And then 40 was another transition were turning 40, and being a single mom, all of a sudden, it was another transition age where I grew into a new version of myself. And in terms of my career, I guess I started to feel more confident. And then 50 was kind of like, Alright, who cares if people like me or not? I am who I am. I'm not changing at this point. I'm just going to be me now. And it was hugely freeing, I tell you. Like, I don't know why people get afraid to turn 50. For me, I experience, it was like, it was the best decade change of my life so far. I'm not sure 60 is going to be so great, because I'm looking at the wrinkles now and gray hairs. So, 50, I was really liking that.

Shawna Rodrigues: 11:53

Now you're gonna be thrilled with it, too. It's just gonna be like, 50. Before you get there, you're a little nervous, but once you hit it, you're going to be like, oh, no, this is awesome. We're gooing with that.

Donna Barke: 12:00

Exactly. And I can't, I can't even imagine what it's going to be. But yeah, I think you're right. It's gonna be awesome. I just don't know what it's gonna be yet.

Shawna Rodrigues: 12:08

Yes, which is mindset, which you have a book about mindset. Why don't you tell us more about your book about mindset, Donna?

Donna Barke: 12:15

So, Scrappy Rough Draft and, is, I'm gonna read because I can never remember the long aas subtitle on it. It's designed to strategically motivate yourself and finish writing your book. So, this was something when I was working on my, my book, Mother Teresa's Advice for Jilted Lovers, I joined a writer's community at that, like, I don't know, probably four years before it actually published. So when I was in my mid 40s, and it was a Romance Writers Group, even though this story wasn't romance, they were the only writing group in town. And so they really supported me in having courage, and also learning the craft. And one of the things that one of the books that everybody says you should read is a book by Anne Lamott. And in that book, she talks about, I hope that it is okay to swear, your shitty first draft. So that is an author's talk about writing a shitty first draft. And I was like, I did a, I did a program, I did a course for aspiring writers back before I wrote this book. After I had published my book, and before writing this one, and in that course, I was referring to Anne Lamott and saying, like, don't get stressed about your first draft, it's not meant to be good. And I called it a shitty first draft and I got taken, raked over the coals as it were, by an English second language writer who took it literally. And she said, she was going to quit the program, right? She was, she was like, so upset. And it got me thinking and we had conversations, and I was like, no, no, no, it's, it's a metaphor. It's a saying that we use in English. And she said, but it's terrible. It makes me feel like, I should just flush this away, it makes me feel like I am a bad writer. And I started thinking when I thought, you know, it kind of makes me feel like a bad writer too to refer to my own writing. So I started doing a lot of research because I am, you know, in another life, if I had had more money to go to school and do master's degrees, I would have done another degree and in psychology, but so, I do that on my own. At my own personal psychology degree. And I figured, like, I figured out all of the, all of the science, the neuroscience, the social science around mindset. And, we're writers, words are so important to us, right? Like, we take so much time to write the right words in our stories. Why were we using this language? Well, because Anne Lamott said it. But I think it was misguided. My personal opinion, which, you know,

Donna Barke: 12:25

no, so I completely agree with you. It's scrappy first draft is a much better way to say it, and I like it because scrappy is a term that it means you're trying, you've got the oomph behind it, and you're going to get there.

Donna Barke: 15:00

Well, it's so funny. So yes. For me, scrappy is like, and when I think of scrappy, scrappy rough draft for me is like scrappy do, the little, in Scooby Doo, the little tiny, the puppy who give back him into a corner and he comes out fighting, like that's the image I see. And one of the exercises, the very first exercise in my book is, find the right name for your book. Stop calling it a shitty first draft. Call it if you're writing a story about kids, like, if it's kid's book, and it's about a witch, a child witch or something, call it, you know, a magical first draft, like, find the right name for it. So that when you're thinking of it, and when you're referring to it like, oh, yeah, I'm working on my, my draft with, when you're referring to to it with other writers, you're using a word that actually brings you joy and makes you feel happy about it. So,

Shawna Rodrigues: 15:00

I love that,

Donna Barke: 15:50

that was, that was that. And yeah, it's been translated to Korean. Like, I cannot tell you how exciting that is that, you know, there might be Kdrama written that my book is. So yeah, really exciting to have, to have that.

Shawna Rodrigues: 16:07

That is so exciting. And might you kind of found a niche within mindset and writers because that is an area where my reader, sorry, where writers need a lot of support. So, tell me you have this new, great project around this. Tell me more about your new project around mindset and supporting other writers.

Donna Barke: 16:22

Thank you. Well, yeah, so it's called, Author Ever After. And it's a, it's a community that's specifically for romance authors. And so, for five years now, I've been running masterminds for authors every, every week we meet and it's all around accountability and motivation, and setting goals that bring you joy. And celebrating all of the small wins, because writing a book takes so much time and, you know, statistically speaking, people's first books take typically between five and 10 years from the time they start writing. And if you're sitting on your own, you don't realize that, I cannot tell you how many writers will say, I've been working on this so long, and they lose confidence and they lose momentum. And they think that it's taking too long. But that is just the reality of those first books, often. So, but romance authors, so I've been doing this with, with genre authors and memoir writers and hundreds, hundreds of authors who have gone from draft to many of them are now published, which is really exciting. But it's the romance authors who bring me the most joy. So, I don't know, I just love working, there's a, there's a, I don't know what it is, it's just a, there's, there's nothing earnest, I guess, at least the community that I attract. There's this playfulness with romance authors, and this desire to experiment that just brings me a whole lot of pleasure. So, I have decided, you know, after working with all the different authors that where I really, really want to niche down and focus is supporting specifically romance authors getting their first books out and, and turning those books into, into money. Because almost every romance author I know is like, I want to make money doing this. I want to, it's a sad thing. I want to quit my job, because I love doing this so much, but I need to make money at it. So, it's

Shawna Rodrigues: 18:22

yeah,

Donna Barke: 18:22

it's finding that those people that I can truly support because I can't support a memoir writer, I'm not the person to support a memoir writer to become an income earning memoir writer. There are lots of people who,

Shawna Rodrigues: 18:33

yeah.

Donna Barke: 18:34

But I can support a romance author to become an income earning romance author because I understand how the romance industry works.

Shawna Rodrigues: 18:40

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's the important thing. Of knowing what, what your place is and what you've learned and sharing that knowledge. You found it definitely a path for it.

Donna Barke: 18:49

Yes. And it's tiny. I mean, it's tiny niche, right? It's a very specific niche, but it's, yeah, and anyway, yes, yes, it is. I can stop talking now.

Shawna Rodrigues: 18:59

You're supposed to be talking. That's why you're here. And you also have this exciting new thing with like, text messages and voice messages you can send to your community. Tell us about that.

Donna Barke: 19:07

It's called, Spark Your Romance. And it's, it's this coolest new technology where you sign up for this program. It's a challenge. A 21 day challenge and every day I will with my dulcet tones, give you a challenge to address your mindset and give you confidence and courage and cheer you on so you fall in love with the story that you're working on. And followed up with a text message say, hey, did you do the homework and then you'll text me back and say, you know, the special word and I'll say yay, good for you. And you know, you got this and maybe give you another little piece of homework. So every day for 21 days and then at the end of it, the, the intention is that you've reconnected with your story. And, and you love it and you just, you know, you get your momentum and want to stick with writing those, those characters that have been speaking to you or stopped talking to you.

Shawna Rodrigues: 20:04

That is so wonderful. That accountability and just having not feeling alone in that journey, I think is really valuable, I'm sorry.

Donna Barke: 20:10

It really is, yeah, yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues: 20:12

That's wonderful. And you and I got to chat a little bit about like this concept of scrappy first draft and how it kind of applies to our own lives and figuring out like, where our purpose is, and how purpose can evolve and like finding, like, growing into where you want to be, can you talk a little bit about your iterations of, I mean, you've been a USA Today best selling romance author of spicy romantic comedies under Danika Bloom, and then you find your way into doing this amazing work with other authors. Can you talk a little bit about your path of how you kind of changed in different iterations and use all your skills from all your different work to come together?

Donna Barke: 20:46

Yeah, it's, it's funny, and it now it is finally coming together. So, I started off, doing a degree in communications, thinking I was going to be a documentary filmmaker. And, because social justice is kind of my thing, and it's where my heart is, but I could never find the, and I've made documentary films, and they've been in festivals. And as a career, it was a tough career to do as a mom, and hard to make money. But the social justice piece was there kind of holding that up. So I worked in progressive nonprofits doing communications and community building. And I did that for over 20 years. And in the last, well, actually, over 30 years. In the last 15 years or so, I started working with a credit union and via credit unions, I don't know if it's the same down in the States. But up here in Canada, Canada's largest credit union is huge in social justice movements. And so, I was working with taking my skills and working with entrepreneurs with disabilities to help them launch businesses, and writing their business plans and doing their cash flow. So the credit union would say, this person has really great idea. But it's not, we can't give them a loan, because their business plan and their cash flow aren't adequate. So can you work with them for 10 to 15 hours, and help them get that figured out? So I did that for a number of years. And I love it. I love all the work, all the clients that I've worked with, but none of them were my thing, right? Like, it's one thing to support those people and those causes, but they weren't the ones that made me wake up in the morning and go, this is my cause. This is the thing I want to, I want to see succeed.

Shawna Rodrigues: 22:32

That you resonate with.

Donna Barke: 22:33

Exactly, yeah. So that, that, yeah, my purpose. So my purpose is to be certainly, absolutely to be helpful, and to community build, but with whom? And it wasn't until I fell into the crowd of romance authors that I realized, oh my gosh, I've finally found my people. So, in terms of, you know, like that growth, it was perhaps circuitous, but it definitely brought me to the place where I am now with the, the confidence in myself and the skills and the experience to be as helpful as I can to authors who want to be earning income because I've got the business background, I've been self employed for over 20 years. I have got a career as a romance author. So it all came together. You know, it's, looking at it on paper you think how do those things work together helping entrepreneurs with disabilities and then writing steamy romance? They do. They just do. That's all I can say. So, this is kind of a scrappy, my life as a scrappy rough draft. And I love, it now you've put this, this bug in my ear that, what 60 couldn't bring up, thinking, I wonder what's 60? So maybe I'm still scrappy, rough draft maybe we always are scrappy, rough until you know, maybe we are not.

Donna Barke: 22:37

Constantly adding different layers. Well, I think that's an important piece that as people are in stages of their life and they're like this isn't quite where I want to be. Like, this isn't, the future isn't where I want to be like as I look out 10 years isn't where I want to be that you don't have to like, trash everything you already have. It's a first draft like you can build on this, you can take what's best from this, take what you love from this and keep going.

Donna Barke: 24:15

Growth on purpose. Take what's best.

Shawna Rodrigues: 24:17

Yeah, yes, it all comes together. It all comes together. Anything that that's an important piece we all have from this that you can take like, you know, if you're a stay at home mom and it's coming to a point where your kids are flying the nest like, what did you love about being a stay at home mom? Did you love running around to all of the different events? Is that something you love? Because some moms don't like that at all? Some love it. Like, do you love throwing the parties? Did you love getting to have quality time with your kids and these deep conversations about what they needed to do and wanted to do? Did you help, teaching and guide them like, what did you love about it? So it's not that, you know, you, you lost your purpose because your purpose has been a bomb. No, your purpose is in the different things you loved about being a mom full time and how can you take those. How can you take, you know, working with business plans for folks that had disabilities? And how can you take that and then skill stacking on something else you love, which is writing steamy comedic romances and build that together to find like your next iteration and get you closer to that. So, I think that there's beautiful things to be taken from this and that everyone can kind of learn and look at their life. And as they're looking at transitions about how they can take the best. Take what was not last draft, and take it with them to even prove it even more.

Shawna Rodrigues: 24:17

I love this, this concept of stalking. That's really, I've not heard that before. I love it. Yeah,

Shawna Rodrigues: 24:52

yeah. Somebody, somebody, another guest we had like, he was talking about how we define things. And like, that's exactly what this is taking all these skills and just like, and magically, we can find the ways they bring it together. So I think that that's going to be, that's going to be a part of our takeaway for our guests, for our audience today is like, how can we stack all of our skills, pitching our strengths because we got some inherent. That's wonderful. That's so exciting. Well, good. I'm glad you're here today. Such an exciting conversation. I know. It's good.

Donna Barke: 26:04

It's, it's, thank you, I, I've been listening to your podcast since it launched. And it's one of those, I don't know, it's not, I can't say a dream. But when, when I approached you and said, Hey, can I, can I maybe talk to you about some stuff? And you said yes, it was like, this is next level, I'm kind of losing my words right now. I'm sorry. But it's like, this is purpose with a purpose, I guess. I don't know if that makes any sense. Right? Like, there's, everybody needs some sort of validation. I guess that's what it is. It's validation. That, I'm not crazy.

Shawna Rodrigues: 26:47

No, you're not crazy. You're not crazy. You may have like a dual identity,

Donna Barke: 26:52

or dual identity thing going on? Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues: 26:54

Yes, exactly. But you're not diagnoseable with that. It's intentional. We want you to have the dual identity. They're both very positive parts of you. We love it. We love it. That's wonderful. Well, let's talk about self care. Because we love talking about self care here. What do you do to take care of yourself, Donna?

Donna Barke: 27:10

I have to say, so, I'm at that lovely stage of life where my hormones are deciding that they're going to try new tricks. And yeah, just really great. Which means, I don't sleep really well anymore, I fall asleep without any problem. So, in terms of self care, I think for me, the most important thing that I have started doing in the last three years is ticking, there's no clock in our bedroom anymore. Because I wake up in the in the middle of the night. And my self care is to use that time without judgment and without stress. And to be my creative not like, you know, when, when you just wake up, you don't have that, that voice that tells you, all your shoulds and the voice that tries to shut down common, like, the common sense voice, right? So, my self care really is taking that time in the middle of the night that I will inevitably wake up and spend whatever it is, an hour, sometimes more and play the what if game with my creativity. Like, you know, two, three in the morning is, I don't turn on the light. I can't stand late in the middle of the dark and keep my eyes closed. But I have, last night I had a conversation with you Shawna.

Shawna Rodrigues: 28:21

How was it?

Donna Barke: 28:24

It was better than this one. I was so clever. I was amused, I laughed so hard. And

Shawna Rodrigues: 28:31

I am laughing hard. That part was true.

Donna Barke: 28:34

That is my self care. It's not judging what my body is just naturally doing. And it's accepting it and allowing it to do its thing through this next stage. And hopefully, hopefully, by the time I'm 60, it'll have learned how to sleep again properly through the night. But until then, it's, yeah, it's using those, those hours that other people are sleeping and, and being creative. In my mind, in my mind and it bubbles up the next day, right?

Shawna Rodrigues: 29:03

Yes, no, that's wonderful. I love like, that lack of judgment and just knowing this is going to happen and I'm going to make use of it. The best way that I know how and I love the don't try to like,

Donna Barke: 29:16

horrible and my husband did, he, he's got, he's got the same thing going on with insomnia. But he gets up and he watches movies. And I'm like, I don't even know how you can do that like half. Anyway, we're very different that way.

Shawna Rodrigues: 29:26

You're very different that way. Well, good. Well, we have Dr. Robin, Dr. Robin Miller is one of our episodes. And I'm thinking she's coming out sometime in mid October. So I'm not sure where timing will be with new episode. But you should listen to her episode because we actually talk about hormones and fun things we talked about on that episode. You should definitely yes, she has a book that's coming out that I think you'll enjoy. So you should definitely check out that episode because we might give you some more tips and tricks.

Donna Barke: 29:49

I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will.

Shawna Rodrigues: 29:51

Yes, she's great. That's wonderful. So great. I like your self care. I think part of it is just being gentle with yourself and knowing where you're at and working on accepting.

Donna Barke: 29:59

Yeah. That's right. Knowing and accepting that that is where I am now in the stage in this, in this season as it were, Shawna.

Shawna Rodrigues: 30:06

Yes, because we have so many seasons. Yes, we do. Wonderful. And you might be aware of this but I give all my guests a coloring book. And so, you get to choose,

Donna Barke: 30:15

I want mermaid. I want mermaid.

Shawna Rodrigues: 30:13

She knows. She wants the mermaid. She gets a mermaid. She gets the Vintage Mermaid and Magnificent Ocean.

Donna Barke: 30:23

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues: 30:23

So you will get the Color of Grit, Vintage Mermaid and Magnificent Ocean. And for my Canadian friends, I've had a couple of Canadian friends on this show. It's kind of fun.

Donna Barke: 30:31

We are fun.

Shawna Rodrigues: 30:32

Yeah. I think you guys, yeah, I think you might be most represented outside of the states, because I've only had like, one from Australia and one from the UK so far. So I think that you guys are representative for Canada. And every time, every time you guys come on, I hear something about a social program with credit unions or the fact there's no interest on student loans. And I'm just like, you guys, like, I might have to move. I would wish the weather was a little less cold.

Donna Barke: 30:56

Yeah,

Shawna Rodrigues: 30:57

you got some cool stuff going on in Canada?

Donna Barke: 31:00

Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues: 31:00

Yes, you do. I like it, I like it. Well, good. We'll definitely get that to you. But what I do is, I send you a download version of it.

Donna Barke: 31:08

So that means I can make mistakes, I can color outside of the lines. And I can do it again. I am excited.

Shawna Rodrigues: 31:15

Exactly. Bonus. Its's a nice bonus. I like that. Wonderful. And so for all of our friends who are listening, like, what do you think that our takeaway should be for all of them? What should be their thing that they walk away and add to their life tomorrow? Should we have them work on your self care technique of looking at their life and not judging whatever they're doing with it? Or should we give them something around, possibly the skills that they have, and looking at the skills and how they can add it to their next draft? What do we think?

Donna Barke: 31:41

Because I'm married to a man who spent an entire career doing a job he did not love, and now, after retirement, is, his taken on, he did six months with no work. And then he got a job working part time doing the thing that he always wished he was doing. I think, which is woodworking, he went from a government bureaucrat working in litigation to being a woodworker. And so, I think the takeaway should be, look at the things you love. And at that next opportunity in your life, when you can do a transition, be ready to transition into that thing that you love. Because, it, truly my husband is 60. It's not too late to become a construction worker, apparently, because, because, the he is. I tell you, the guy is sore when he gets home from work. But he loves it. So, you know, thinking of these milestones, again, you know, my husband happen to be on the decade. Many people do have, you know, their decade crises, I prefer to think of those decades not as a crisis moment but as an opportunity to make a conscious change to something that is what, you know, we're now ready to take on. So that would be where I would.

Shawna Rodrigues: 31:43

I love it. I love it. So start really thinking about those things that your skills and your want and the things you want to do that later, you have your passions, or finishing your purpose, all these things together, you can find that and to start looking around for those clues, as little tidbits of what you love about the things because there's lots of things we don't love about our lives. But there's lots of things we do love. And so find those things that you do love and try to think of those. When you wake up in the middle of the night, you can start percolating about the different ways that they can go together.

Donna Barke: 33:01

How can I bring those in? Yeah,

Shawna Rodrigues: 33:31

yes. Find that way. I love it. So, Okay, everyone, that's your plan from today is to go start thinking about those things and how you can integrate them into your next transition, right?

Donna Barke: 33:39

Sound great.

Shawna Rodrigues: 33:40

Because transitions happen. We never know when they're going to be and what they're going to be. But if you're looking for them,

Donna Barke: 33:45

when you're ready for them, if you're ready for them

Shawna Rodrigues: 33:47

ready for them, get ready for them, you start opening those doors. I like it. I like it a lot. Well, good. Well, let's tell folks. So that wonderful text messaging program that you have that you mentioned, you even have a discount to the folks who are listening because you're amazing. So tell us about how to get hooked up with that, and then tell us how to find you in general.

Donna Barke: 34:07

Okay. So I guess there'll be a link in the show notes for,

Shawna Rodrigues: 34:10

there will be

Donna Barke: 34:11

so it'll, it'll be on Author Ever After. And then when you use the code GRIT, you will get 15% off and you get to have this conversation with me for 21 days.

Donna Barke: 34:24

And,

Shawna Rodrigues: 34:24

I love it.

Donna Barke: 34:25

And then, the other places you can find me, you can find me on Amazon, just as Danika Bloom. Danika with a K and that's where if you're interested in reading spicy romance, I was thinking anyway, I was, I was recently having to rewrite my bio and what occurred to me was, see, I only have one child. I always wanted to be, you know, the mum in the Partridge Family or the Brady Bunch and have all kinds of kids. That was always my dream when I was a teenager but, body just said, Nope, you're gonna have one. And so, I rewrote my bio, and just was like, as you know, as a mom of one who always wanted to be, you know, Jan, not Jan Brady but the mom Brady. I write steamy romance about bands of brothers. And then it was like, oh, that's kind of creepy, isn't it? Like, mom writing about all of her sexy sons. But I kept it because I thought that's kind of funny.

Shawna Rodrigues: 35:21

Yes, really funny. It's amusing.

Donna Barke: 35:23

But it's also kind of creepy. But anyway, but it's, that's romcom. It works.

Shawna Rodrigues: 35:28

It's romcom.

Donna Barke: 35:29

So, amazon.com is probably the best place to find. And there's of course, DanikaBloom.com. But,

Shawna Rodrigues: 35:36

that's nice and easy. Yes, yes. You like big family. You'd like the family.

Donna Barke: 35:40

I love found families. That's what my, my son, my one son did is he created his found family. Yeah.

Shawna Rodrigues: 35:46

Oh, that's wonderful. I love it. Well, good. Well, yes, that's how to find her. And if you do, I want to hear about your experiences, wonderful, new technology of getting to get text messages and voice messages. This let me check that out. Send me a DM too because I want to hear it. Because that sounds like fun.

Donna Barke: 36:03

Yeah, yes. All right. Yes.

Shawna Rodrigues: 36:05

Yes. Well, thank you so much for being here.

Donna Barke: 36:09

Thank you.

Shawna Rodrigues: 36:10

Yes, you're delightful. This has been great. So for everyone out there, be sure to stop by thegritshow.com. That's where you can get your copy of coloring pages that you can download so you can work on your self care because that's important. And as you know, you are the only one of you that's out there. And that really does need something. Talk to you again next week. Take care.