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Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:00:00

This is the 3rd in our 3 part series around coaching versus therapy and trying to understand a little more about what they are, and how they might be meeting your needs. We've established that coaches and therapists are helpers. And we're delineating a little more about what the differences between the 2 are, which we talk about more in today's episode. In our previous episode, last week, number 2, We talked a little bit more about the different titles that coaches have and what that actually means. We also talked about some of the different ways that the coaches we've had on our show meet the needs of their clients and how that's a little bit different. We also talked about the different backgrounds and experiences and training the coaches have and the ideal clients that they serve. Today, We're gonna talk a little more about the differences because, again, episode 1, we talked about therapists and clinicians and kind of what -- the baseline of what they offer and their background in training. And today, we're bringing you together with what's the difference between the 2 as we laid them out. So we have some great examples I think you're really going to enjoy. We're also going to talk more about the questions you should ask when you are looking for a helper. to better understand if they are the right fit for you and to see how that relationship is going to work. So stick around. This is a good episode. And if you haven't already listened to the first two episodes, episode 53, and episode 55, you should definitely go back and check those out so you have the full context. Welcome to the great show, where our focus is growth on purpose. I am your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be part of this community as we journey together with our grit intact to learn more about how to thrive and how to get the most out of life. It means a lot that you are here today. As you listen, I encourage you to think of who may appreciate tibbits of knowledge we are sharing, and to take a moment to pass this along to them. Everyone appreciates a friend that thinks of them, and these conversations are meant to be shared and to spark even more connections. I'm excited to tell you a little bit about our guest today. Jacquelyn Emery is a certified live coach, podcast host and founder of the life and the driver seat coaching program, which is all about empowering women to get into the driver seat of their life. so they can feel better, get more enjoyment out of their life, and intentionally create a life they love. This is her 4th time appearing on the show. She is officially our most seasoned guest, and we have been grateful for her wisdom and perspective. You can revisit her in episode 47 and episode 48 is actually a guest episode of her podcast, life in the driver's seat, which she generously agreed for us to share with all of you. Thank you for being here with us again, Jacquelyn

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:02:52

Thanks for having me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:02:53

Will Halpin is a psychotherapist and public health social worker with over 20 years of experience working in community health center settings and in private practice. Most of his clinical experience has been working within the LGBTQAI+ population and, specifically, complex developmental trauma and substance abuse. He is trained in a variety of treatment modalities to offer a variety of options when working with survivors of trauma. including internal family systems, IFS, which you can hear them talk about more on episode 32 of The Grids Show. Dilectrical behavior therapy, also known as DBT, and eye movement desensitization and reprocessing EMDR. He is currently training and neurofeedback to offer it as an additional treatment for trauma survivors at his private practice and steer bridge mass. He also enjoys treating new therapists who are learning IFS. When he's not at work, you can find him in the mountains, in the lake, or in the woods, enjoying whatever outdoor recreation is available in that particular season. Thanks for being here with us again well.

Will Halpin [: 00:03:54

Great to be back, of course.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:03:56

Eric Bauberger is one of the earliest guests of the great show. And first appeared with this last fall on episode 7, music, purpose, clarity, and flow. You should really check that one out. Eric is a holistic life coach and spiritual singer songwriter. He guides creatives on a journey to authentic freedom. You can get his full bio and last week's episode, number 55. Welcome to your 3rd appearance on the Grit Show, Eric.

Eric Bauberger [: 00:04:21

Thank you for having me once again.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:24

Our 4th guest today is Linh Phan, the founder of bonafide life coaching and a body acceptance coach. We got to know her on episode 29 intuitive eating acceptance and resolution outside of diet culture. Her phobia is in the show notes of last week's episode number 55. The second in the series. I appreciate you being here again with us, Linh.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:44

Thank you so much, Shawna. Happy to be here.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:04:48

I'm excited for us to go ahead and get back into this conversation. It's fabulous. We've had 3 episodes to kind of explore the differences between coaching and therapy. And to kind of revisit that, on the first episode, we talked a little bit about the differences and dove into what a therapist is and kind of grouped everything together as helpers. Do we wanted to kind of have you guys have an opportunity to talk more about the difference between coaching and therapy as you guys kind of see it? Jacquelyn, do you have thoughts?

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:05:17

I was just having this conversation at at someone's house last night because they were asking about this. Like, what's the difference? And I'm like, well, I'm glad you asked. And I heard it explained so beautifully.I really think if therapist takes someone from below baseline. Right? Like, if someone's not functioning, right, and they can bring them to baseline, where a coach is more -- at least in my experience in my coaching and the people who I am in coaching groups with and my colleagues, it's like we can take people from baseline to above baseline. Right? Like, let's go here. Not that a therapist can't do both, but I do think it's important to note that if you're below baseline, you need therapy to get to baseline. Say someone comes to me and they've had with traumatic things that have happened to them. I can help them on what's your thought about that happening to you. What's your, right, what shame. What what are you making that mean about you? But when they're experiencing trauma, that takes techniques and experience that I don't have. So it's very important for me to say, I can continue helping you in your life. I know you asked before about, like, should we be referring people? And I think that absolutely necessary. I think there is a lot of life coaches out there who think that they don't have to refer, and I think that's very important to stay that. If you're with a quiet that's the low baseline, a therapist is where they come in to help them get there. Another beautiful way I heard it explained is, like, if you're a baseball player and you break your arm, you need a doctor. If you wanna win the game, get coached. It's just a very simple way to explain it to people and to the listeners. And I think that's important.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:06:49

Yes. If you have a broken arm, you go to a doctor. If you wanna win the game, you have a coach.

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:06:53

Yeah. It's like you wanna get better at your game. Right? If you're already there, then get coach. Right? Let's work on that. And, again, it's not that we both can't help people in certain ways that I think they're just a beautiful, flow to both of those, I think, where they can both work so beautifully for the same person if that makes sense.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:10

Yeah. No. I love that analogy because, again, if you have a broken arm, you can still have a coach help you learn techniques that'll help you win the game eventually, but you can't even play the game if you have a broken arm.

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:07:19

Correct. Yeah. And it's, like, especially for getting love. Like, I give tough love to people. It's like, you know, in some people, they're not at a place where they're ready for that. Right? Like, they're not at a place where they're able to take, like, like, coaches are very oriented. But if you're dealing with someone who's not even capable of that, right, they need to get the help to be that person capable of doing the things I am teaching them.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:07:39

Yeah. That's great. Will, did you have something to say about that?

Will Halpin [: 00:07:42

Yeah. I actually really enjoy working with coaches, and this is one of the reasons why you kind of named it to some degree, but I think the best thing I can offer is an example without disclosing any personal detail. But there's a client to work with that has pretty severe complex trauma. it continues to show up in this person's relationships and other things. And so our work, we can do the deeper die. And this and I'm not saying though don't do deeper die, but we do the traumatic deeper work so they can show up more optimally in their coaching sessions. So the coach that I co work with does another piece of work because I only have hour of time, you know, because that's what the insurance company gives me. Right? Or I can maybe get some more, but that's a little more complicated. So it's nice when I can do this piece. And I'm like, okay. this coach is doing this other piece, and we communicate. So we're very clear about what I do and what she does. This this coach I've worked with.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:08:33

Oh, that's awesome. That's a really great example. Well, thank you. Eric, did you have something to add?

Eric Bauberger [: 00:08:39

I was gonna speak along the very same lines. You know, that idea of of a coach being someone that takes someone from good or, like, functional to great or to that next level. But at the same time, I believe every single person would benefit from therapy. And there's so many different forms of therapy. I think therapy is for everyone But coaching is for people that are ready to really get into certain actions moving towards a certain goal. And from what my mentor really emphasized with my group of coaches that we're certifying through her program, it's not within our scope to try to work someone through big trauma versus small trauma, and that sounds, you know, kinda active because two people could experience the same thing, and it's all about how their nervous system and physiology carries that trauma forward. But if you're working with someone and whatever you're talking about gets them into a stress response and they're out of their window of tolerance, That's a good sign that this is a little bit beyond the coach, and they need some deeper work. And then also it's someone's currently struggling with the drug or alcohol addiction. That's not someone that's really ready for coaching and less They're having this therapy on the other end working at the same time. And there is a blending, and there's an interweaving because they're certainly things that I do with people that are therapeutic for their emotions and for their habits, but it's all on a spectrum and it really is up to the coach or to the therapist. to determine, okay, what type of help would be most supportive to this person at this time?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:10:19

Oh, this is great. You guys are amazing. You are the right people to be here. I'm so grateful you guys are here. Do you have anything to add Linh? I mean, they've covered a lot.

Linh Phan [: 00:10:28

Yeah. I don't think I have much to add. I would just say, just to be clear, like, you know, a lot of coaching relationships, it's finite. Right? There's usually a goal that we're working toward and it's a number of sessions. And then once the client has achieved that goal or, like, gotten as close to it as possible or then the relationship generally ends. Whereas with therapy, in my experience and, like, personally speaking, that can continue for the rest of my life. There's always something to talk about, something to unpack. Whereas with coaching, it's more like, k. I want to achieve x, y, zed. I'm gonna get a coach to help me get there.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:11:04

Nice. That's very helpful. I love you guys sharing all of your perspectives, and this has been very valuable. So I think that goes into How does somebody know if they should be looking? I think you guys did a good job of when should I be looking for coaching versus therapy. Do you guys have more specific examples? I really appreciated that, like, with Will talking about when it was in tandem and the examples that Jacquelyn gave and the Eric gave about, like, the level of response you're having kind of directs you in that direction and when it's a specific goal that you have that coaching might be the answer for you. in general, people can kind of reflect on where they're at and what their needs are, that if it's something finite and specific that they're like, I have this goal that that maybe they should be looking for a coach to help them with it. But if it's something more global that's happened to them that they're coping with on an ongoing basis that they should probably be looking for therapy, Is that what we're thinking?

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:11:55

Yeah. I don't even know if I necessarily explain it that way only because I think some people think They don't realize that it is coming from trauma. Right? Like, they're like, hey. I want help with my relationship. I'm gonna get a relationship culture. I want help losing weight. I need to So they're thinking it's that specific goal, but they're not realizing the reason they can't get that goal is because of who they are and how they're showing up in the block that they have. So figuring out why is very important where that might be a therapy piece. Does that make sense where they don't realize that they're needing that? They might think, hey. Jump on the coach train that's offering this specific result. But it's like, woah, woah. You want the result, but there's a pool reason why you're this is showing up for you, why you're not able to get that.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:12:38

That makes very good sense. I like that awareness. So people don't even always know what they need. is the bottom line. And so you might start somewhere and end up learning as you go that you need to be somewhere else.

Will Halpin [: 00:12:50

Yeah. And, I mean, I think it speaks to just Yeah. I can only speak from my end of it, but, I mean, part of my ethics that I follow and I'm held accountable to by by licensing board and all of that, and we all have our various things I'm for you all as well. But, you know, knowing my area of expertise and knowing when I falls out of it and when clients start going into areas or things that I I'm not trained in or I don't have sufficient knowledge, and it's my ethical responsibility to say, I think we need to have someone else on board to help with this, or I need to refer you to somebody. who specifically can deal with that. So it always is sort of you know, people say what they had come in for, but you have a you get a tin snicket when But, like, you start this down with some, like, okay. Wow. Oh, wow. There's an eating disorder that you can feel safe just closing in the first few sessions now that we're knowing that's more present, I'm definitely gonna be getting a specialist in eating disorders. That's not something I specialize in. And I may get a, you know, a thoughtful nutritionist to assist with that as well. So, again, it it is you're right. You don't always know, but I think it's our job as the helpers to kind of know what the boundaries are, whatever our specialty is, and be very honest with ourselves and our clients about when we should have someone else work with us or refer out. because clients don't always know. They don't always know what they need or they don't always know, like, oh, therapists help with all things or coaches help with all things. Right? And distinguishing what's trauma, what's kind of actualization, you know, at something that's really nuanced and not always so easy. So --

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:14:12

Well, I think that's where it comes important to to have a therapist coach helper, to have a helper who is also getting help that also has a coach or a therapist or a clinical supervisor, etcetera, etcetera, or they're part of a practice where they have other people they work with. because then being able to discern that also requires them to help somebody untangle that sometimes. Because, especially, I feel like during the pandemic, if not in general, all of our helpers are overloaded. And so for them to be able to have the pause where they can reflect and say, you know what? I'm kind of thinking this client might be more than I'm able to give, and that might be part of why it's important to have somebody that's connected to a larger network that they can reflect back and realize that, oh, yeah. This person does need more than I'm able to support and I can have these boundaries and be able to refer them or make sure they get what they need.

Will Halpin [: 00:14:59

Yeah. Really quick, I'll distinguish it too. Like, when I know to bring coach on, for example. Like I said, if I this particular client I mentioned before that I co work with another coach around, what was important to kind of why we brought in a coach was Alright. So there was all this trauma that we needed to deal with, right, that was impacting my client's abilities to take steps professionally. And so They were sort of I'm in this place to refigure out what I'm doing professionally. I need some more practical, like, that element of it too, but we also have, like, these impediments that Eric so wonderfully named about the nervous system disregulation moments of, like, freezing or not being able to tolerate or bring things in. And so I was doing the work to help my client show up in her best way So when she was working with her coach on this very specific thing that, like, we're gonna get me from a to z with my professional life, that it was great. Like, okay. They've got that. I can do just the interest psychic work on, like, helping them show up and be present and not triggered. and, like, not activated by their past traumas that get triggered in interviews or get triggered in networking or selling themselves.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:16:04

Nice. But they also needed the other piece to help them be able to be successful.

Jacquely Emery [: 00:16:09

Yeah. That's so good. It's like if you're not fun -- functioning. Right? You need to get to that level where you're functioning in order to be able to, like you said, step forward in that specific action. Right? Like, I want to, you know, have a better relationship. I want to make more money. I want to grow a business. Whatever. Like, if you're not functioning, right, you need to get to that level And then you'll be able to, like he said, step into that and be able to be present to step forward in that, and that's where a coach comes again. because, like, Will said, I only have so much tied. Right? So I need to do what I do best and focus on where my real power is to help you and let someone else rate. Like, there's not enough time in the day. -- for him to be doing that. So it's like, here you go. Now go work on the to do this specific thing. Not that we don't work on the emotional things as coaches, but it's totally different.

Will Halpin [: 00:16:56

Yeah. You're right. There is definitely overlap in some of the ways. Like, the way thinking impedes you certain things like that absolutely, but there is that Yeah. I think I like the way everyone's sort of distinguishing sort of where the overlaps are, but where the distinction is.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:17:11

So I think everyone's done a good job of talking about, like, the residents you have with a helper, that that is an important element for you to have. But what about when you're first meeting and having that first meeting when I spoke with my book club, and they didn't know that there was a difference between coaches and therapists and thought that the coach was a therapist? When that whole conversation took place, the person didn't realize that they'd gone to therapists and didn't even realize the therapist did when they went to therapists. And I feel like a lot of people aren't empowered to ask questions to learn about the specialties, and this is kind of where we can get into a little bit of a alphabet soup about some of the specialties. And so even we talked about Will's EMDR, you have IFS, you have DVT, you have these specialties, But how would someone ask you or even know how those things play into your work with them?

Will Halpin [: 00:18:00

Well, you know, certainly, I offer a consultation for free for they can just talk to me. Like, what are they looking to address? Right? I mean, they try to give me the bullet points. And I explained to them, like, this is my background. This is what I can offer. I try to bring some of these crazy alphabet soup things into, like, really pithy, like, statements that can make you the sense of it. And I I have all kinds of references on my website. So I say, look. My website talks about these are the things I do. This is where I got trained. This is where I get supervised. Right? Like, this is my experience in this, and this is, like, you can read an article or 2 on how these kinds of therapies sort of could help. So I sort of try to empower them on that free consultation to say, look, go. Or even before so, I'm like, go to my website. Look through it. Look through these things and come to me with questions. about well, I read about this thing in internal family systems. I have this issue. What is that about? So I really tried to do that. in addition to saying, look. You have a chance to get to know me as your consumer of health services. You may have been in therapy before. What was not helpful? what didn't work in previous helping relationships. So I want you to think about those and ask me those questions. Ask me about my training. Ask me about my experience. Like, I have prompt them to if they don't.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:19:13

Is it helpful for someone to know to say, like, I wanna understand what neurofeedback is and what exactly you're going to do with neurofeedback? Or I wanna understand what intuitive eating is and what that means, or I understand what holistic life coaching is and what that is. Are those the questions are helpful? Or is it more like they should be able to say, like, How are you gonna help me? What do our our sessions look like? Like, what are the questions that they should have coming in that are gonna be helpful for them, whatever helper they go to?

Will Halpin [: 00:19:40

Both. I mean, all of those questions. Right? Like, how can you help me? I wanna see, like, tell me, like, show me what it could look like. or I read about neurofeedback, tell me what that looks like. I wanna know. And, again, being a consumer of health care, I'm like, I want you to be fully informed as a consumer. So all of those questions are good. Like, come prepared to interview me. Ask me all of those.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:20:02

That's awesome. And you need to have them be willing to be interviewed, and it's okay if they aren't for you to go see somebody else. I want people to feel empowered that if if somebody's not willing to answer questions that you need to go somebody else. So what are other questions that other folks have that you feel like would be good questions to ask you that people would get a lot out of if they asked you?

Eric Bauberger [: 00:20:24

I feel like a lot of people that end up doing that clarity session, that initial free experience with me, They know that they wanna work towards something, but they don't really understand how it is they're going to get there or or what I'm gonna be able to do to assist them. So a lot of that first session is helping people get clear on specifically what it is they want, clarify that vision, and not just the tangible aspect of it, but what their values are within it? What do they want to experience by it? How do they want to feel and really painting a picture of, like, okay. This is where we're looking to go. This is where we are now and asking them what is most blocking or the what is keeping you from this now, what is your biggest obstacle? And then giving them an experience of shifting through that obstacle or showing them how the obstacle is actually the opportunity or the block is the stepping stone. And I imagine that I could do a better job of being very clear and specific of how I work with people, but a lot of the times people resonate on some level and they wanna dive in and know more. So as a coach, I need to know what powerful questions people need to be asked. So they could then determine whether this is appropriate for them or not. And, obviously, I'm vetting as well, deciding whether or not they're an appropriate fit for me, But giving them that experience and asking them those questions so they could become aware, like, oh, yeah. This is how I could get there, and this is a simple easy process. And, yeah, I do wanna do this. This feels right for me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:22:07

That makes sense. So asking a little bit about the process if that's important to them, asking if the person that they're gonna be meeting with has someone that they meet with, if they have a coach or therapist, they have a helper who they go to for help, can be helpful to help understand how that person gets supports. Do you think it's helpful if they ask if you've worked with somebody like them before? So if I'm somebody who has been diagnosed with ADHDs, it helps for me to say have you worked with somebody with ADHD before? Is that something you're comfortable with? Is that something that's challenging for you to be able to share those type of things?

Will Halpin [: 00:22:44

Yeah. Those questions absolutely should happen for sure. You know, you need to make sure that this person is competent and skilled and sensitive to that. And just distinguishing too. Like, yeah. Great to you do your own therapeutic work, which I mentioned in the previous episode. But when people say, like, okay. I use this particular therapy. Alright. What that mean? What training did you get? Like, where did you get trained? Are you certified? What's the certification process look like? This happens with therapists where, like, oh, oh, I use an Turtle Family Systems where I used something and they read a book or they, like, got an article, and I'm not dissuading that as an option. But as far as, like, really dialing down to what you're experience level is, like, saying, did you just read a book? Did you just read an article? I'm fine with that. Or I want someone who's really seasoned in this particular kind of treatment. So if you're a trauma therapist, what is your trading in trauma? Like, what things have you done? Where can I reference that? Can I go look at the places you got trained? I kinda pull up the websites. I say, absolutely. I want you to have all that information.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:23:40

Well, I think that's a good example. So even, like, if I ask somebody, like so if you work to people with ADHD and they say, yeah. I'm like, well, have you got any training in that? How many people have you worked with? What do you know about it? because somebody could just say yes, I worked with ADHD, but then they don't actually they've worked with one person. They could say yes to that. So to actually get something that makes me feel more comfortable with it than it just saying they've done it once and to be able to get, like, a better understanding of that. And that's interesting because doctor Bruce Perry is somebody who I followed and have huge immense respect for. And it was interesting because he said that the phrase trauma informed can make him crazy because I think it was trauma informed therapy he was talking about, that there's not really, like, any gold standard for what trauma informed is. Like, that's just such a ubiquitous term that people use. but doesn't mean anything. Like, there's no way to know what that means. And so it might mean something and it might not. Like, there's no gold standard of what that actually means is that people use that, like, as a trauma informed system, a trauma informed school, a trauma informed, this is a trauma informed that, but that doesn't necessarily mean So you need to actually ask, like, what does that mean? Like, if you're a trauma informed coach, like, have you gotten training around trauma? Are you certified in IFS? Have you gone to train this with IFS? Like, what do you do with me that lets me know that you know about trauma? So how does this actually look? And so to be able to ask deeper questions, because I think that even if you ask the top level questions that you need to ask the deeper questions, like, what does this actually look like? What does this actually mean? I think is that the way to kind of ask that so that you can kind of feel comfortable and what that actually means and actually feels like. And I think that that's important because that's something that you wanna feel. And I think always trusting your gut. I think this is an important part of it.

Speaker D [: 00:25:24

One thing to add of a recent experience. I knew that I was looking for another coach, and I'm currently with another coach. But when I was in the process, And I feel this isn't important for anyone looking for coaching or therapy just to have an idea of at least a few options of the different ways that you could move perhaps towards the same outcome and to then be able to ask whoever that person is that's doing that initial session with you, asking them, how can you help me in a way that's different than this other option and why do you feel that your process is more appropriate? And that was something that I asked for this particular coach that I ended not working with because I happened to find someone who was just very, very resonate. When I as soon as I saw their website and read their coffee. I was like, this person is speaking directly to me. And then after meeting with them, I was like, this is what I need, and I could feel that in my gut. But it took the process of knowing, okay. The others are a few different ways I could go. Let me meet these people, and then I'm gonna go with what feels best and what feels most resonant and aligned.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:26:33

No. That's very helpful. Go ahead, Jackuelyn.

Jacquelyn Emery [: 00:26:35

He nailed it when he said that too about that he said, oh, how they And I feel like I used to get more questions, and now I feel when people get that consult, I they're sold before they get on. They're just like, no. Just tell me how to sign up. Right? So I think when you put yourself out there, like he said, the way they talk, you think you're going to attract the people that are like, this is the person that can help me. This is finally the person So I find the more you put yourself out, they really explain what you're doing. The less people come with questions because they're like, oh my gosh. This is the person that can help me. They feel it in their gut. He said this person was speaking to me. They come to that hall. Like, there is different ways. Like, some people will come with a billion questions, but I feel like the more you put out there and really get good at believing in yourself and what you offer and explaining that in a clear way.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:27:22

Yeah. I think one of the challenges, though, is the difference between finding a coach and finding a therapist, is it psychology today is a good research for finding therapists and searching for therapists. And we'll actually put a link to that in the notes care. And I feel that when you're sewn in by your insurance because a lot of therapists are being paid for by your insurance, and you're sewn in by your insurance, It can be very challenging. I know that I shared it in the first episode in the series that I can't find a therapist. I've been looking for a therapist for, like, 3 or 4 years now. Will's had to hear about this. He's a friend of mine. So I've been looking for years for a therapist and have not successfully been able to find a therapist. So it hasn't It started with me, like, vetting and looking and trying to find somebody I resonated with, which is what I had the luxury of doing a decade ago. It's no longer I can't look for recommendations. I can't look for you can't get in with anybody, and so it's not even an option. And so and the last therapist that I tried to see that I did their well, the online options, and I found a great prescriber through that online option. They were amazing. The prescriber was for the therapist. I found we talked about them the whole time and not about me, so I stopped paying for that. And I've also had not great experiences with therapists overall. in my life, but I've had great experiences as well. And so it's not always easy with a therapist, and it's harder to find who you resonate with. Whereas, like, with coaches, I feel like They do more marketing. They do more workshops. They go on podcasts. I think podcasts. Hello. Are a great way to get to hear them. get to know them, see if you resonate with them, listen to what they say, and coaches have to do a better job of marketing themselves because they don't get referrals from insurance. And so they are clearer on their messaging, and they are clearer on what they do, and it is easier to find that residency for you even have a conversation with them. So that's why I feel like there's this challenge. And then I know a number of people that go to see a therapist once twice, and I have somebody dear to me that went to a therapist twice, and they just stopped showing up because they didn't connect and didn't have the comfort of being, like, No. You're the wrong therapist. And so I talked to me, and I was like, no. That was the wrong therapist. And she said, no. You're the wrong therapist and asked for different therapists instead of getting a bad reputation at this clinic that they showing up for appointments. And so then they can no longer see somebody through that clinic because they didn't show up for appointments when in fact the therapist was not helping them, did not have a good connection with them and wasn't doing what they needed. And I was able to help them get that language after it's kinda too late, and they were blackballed at that clinic, and there was no other clinic they could easily get transportation to. And so to have that authority I feel like with therapy is probably a little bit more of a challenge than finding the residents with coaches. So what are your guys' thoughts on that? I don't know if if everyone here has been to therapy or has had experiences with therapy or has family or friends with therapy, but can we speak a little bit more to that maybe? I'm jealous of Linh. She's in Germany. I feel like I need to move to Germany so I can get therapy. Linh, if I move to Germany, will I get therapy easier?

Linh Phan [: 00:30:18

Oh, I don't know about that. There are waiting lists. I think it's as difficult as it is in the states.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:24

Darn it.

Linh Phan [: 00:30:26

Unfortunately. Yeah. And especially if you want an English speaking one, then the waiting list is even longer.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:31

So I had to learn German, and I have to attend

Speaker E [: 00:30:36

But, you know, like, the obstacles that we would take to actually get, you know, a good therapist. Right?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:44

Yeah. But I think you need to find the right person. So don't stay with somebody just because it's an obstacle to get a good therapist because there are Wills out there. Will, you don't even have any openings in your practice, do you?

Will Halpin [: 00:30:55

No. Not currently.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:30:56

Yeah. So that's what surprised me. My I'll look at therapist. I know I don't have any openings.

Will Halpin [: 00:31:00

Again, every therapist has their own process. And, again, this is sort of coming from my feminist sort of ideology around how to be as a therapist with my clients is I'm like, look. You're interviewing me as much as I'm interviewing you. You know? If you don't like what we're doing, if you don't wanna work with me, that's okay. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. I think other folks have said, there are certain clients that resonate with you, other ones that just don't for a million reasons, and I'm happy to know that. And sometimes still clients still struggle with that, but let me know. because I will help you find somebody else. That is my job, actually. If I don't work well with you, my ethical bound is if I've contracted to work with you and we are working out, and you let me know, it's my job to ethically help you find a referral. And I will do my darn just and I realize with the impact of the pandemic, and the system mental health in general, and our health care system is broken quite a bit. And there are weight lifts a lot of places, but as much as I can work with broken system, I will do that, and I'm ethically bound to do it. So take advantage of that. The sucky thing if you leave is you're on your own again and you're, like, kind of in the sea of where do I figure things out. But, again, clients because that powered entry to how hard I'm saying. You're not helpful or, like, I don't like you. I'm like, fine. That's okay. Like, you don't have to like me. We'll find someone else. Getting that platform, like, talking ahead of the this is something you would think about, like, talk to me about it. So give them permission.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:32:16

Yeah. If you manage to get into a system instead of just not showing off your appointments or those pieces as a result of not filling that connection that instead you should feel empowered to find somebody in that system to say, I'm not connecting with this person for reason x, y, or z. I still need therapy help me find somebody I do connect with. And so to be empowered to still search in the system and to know that that system should help you find somebody else. Like, once they get you in the door, it's obligated to help you find someone else and for you to do that for your child, for your sibling, for your parents, for somebody that you know that that to keep trying, to just keep trying, and to know that it's not you, You were not broken. The system is broken and to keep fighting and pushing for that if that is what you need.

Will Halpin [: 00:33:04

Right. And just because it's not working for me doesn't mean you're not fixable. You know? Like, I'm not the right fit. And I realized 2 people struggle with assertiveness, and it advocates themselves as a big reason people come to therapy or go to coaches. So I realized the very thing we're asking do is maybe hard. So I'm really, like, in the beginning, I'm like, can't hold it. I'm like, hey. Let me know. I know this may be really, really hard. I promise you I want to know. Like, please please tell me.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:33:29

Yes. And chances are the therapists I don't resonate with are the ones that aren't like that. That was quite possible that that you're not resonating with somebody who's not like that because they don't have that orientation or that perception. But the system they work in should have that orientation and it should be like that. So go into that system even if you can't go to that individual. So fill in power to do that. So that's very helpful. So you have an LICSW, a licensed independent clinical social worker because of the designation in Massachusetts for you are licensed. It's a little bit different. Would you just talk a little bit more about some of the alphabet soup and some of the people that you work with and some of those designations?

Speaker C [: 00:34:06

are we talking about, like, other people who are helpers like other parts you mentioned?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:10

Yes. Yes. That you work with because I talked about it a in my episode, but could you just expand a little bit on your perspective for that?

Will Halpin [: 00:34:31

Sure. So I listened to your episode, so I wanna make sure I don't repeat. But there are a variety of people in mental health with insurance companies. So I'm not speaking about coaches here. Right? So as far as mental health licensed under insurance plans and stuff like that, So we have, like, what? I'm a LICSW licensed independent clinical social worker. So should I describe, like, what that is, or should I just describe being comparison to others?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:34:40

Because so you have dialectical behavior therapy, DBT is one of your designations. But when you got that designation, you were training with people that were not licensed clinical social workers. You specialized in trauma, but also in substance abuse at one point in your -- Yes. training and the LGBTQIA plus communities, and I specialize young children. But you studied with people that weren't LICSWs, even though you have that. So you could talk more about people that you worked with that have your specializations that don't have the LCSW or the MSW training.

Will Halpin [: 00:35:12

Yeah. So, I mean, again, like, there are psychologists typically have PhDs or societies. Right? And they have a different degree track, and they have a different sort of training program. Right? And they can do psychological testing, whereas the social worker I cannot. Right? So a lot of people are confused about what the parameters are. Like, I can't prescribe. Right? Some people say, oh, can you prescribe medication? like, no. Psychologists cannot. License clinical social worker cannot. Licensed middle health counselors, which is licensed professional counselors in other states or licensed marriage and family therapist cannot prescribe. only psychiatric nurses, psychiatrists who go to med school, or people who have special designations as psychiatric nurse practitioners, or psychiatric physician's assistance been prescribed. So we can share like, I work with people in DVT or EMDR who are prescribers, right, who are LMA sees who are psychologists. We all have different letters that mean different levels of training and different parameters of what we can do. but we also share, like, a specialty. Right? So if you can have a DBT specialist or an EMDR specialist, choose a psychologist, choose a psychiatrist, you know, you can't have licensed clinical social worker who prescribes medications.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:36:19

No. That's perfect. because that's definitely something I didn't touch on is the prescribing and that type of thing. So sometimes even when you have somebody who's licensed, like, the license and the ability to prescribe or even different. And so you had to have more helpers that are at different levels to be able to support you when you as designations as well. That's very helpful. And it changes by state as well sometimes.

Will Halpin [: 00:37:40

Correct. Yeah. I mean, every state has its own level of licenses, particularly for mid level practitioners or, like, clinical social workers, licensed marriage and family therapist, licensed professional counselors, licensed mental health counselors. We all have a different mix of letters depending on the state, but I guess that's why I encourage all people like, what do your letters mean? Tell me what their letters mean? What is your training that brings you to that? And I think you mentioned in your episode too, Shanna, that even though we're both LICSWss in Massachusetts, so we both same degree level. Obviously, our specialties are humongously different. It would be humongously unethical for me to practice with children. I do not work with anyone under the age of eighteen. And if the therapist should know that, like, if someone calls me, oh, I have a twelve year old. I'm like, no. I'm not fit. Right? But my other person in LICSW, I'm like, yeah. Well, what is their training? Oh, they've been trained in early childhood development or they are play therapists? Are they specialized in sand tray or certain specific therapies that are geared for children? We share the same licenses but we have different trainings. So that's why the what is your letters mean? Tell me your specific trainings that help with my issue. Like, I feel this way, what can you do to help and what are you trained into that right. And ethically, if we practice outside of that, I mean, a client could file against my license in the state. Right? Because I am practicing outside of the bounds of my ethical knowledge of my skill set. Right? So I'm not working with the population I trained in. So, I mean, not to, like I my wife, I assume everybody, but I want to empower them to say, like, look like if you're you should be getting honest care that is based out of training and knowledge and experience, and if they're stepping outside of that and you get harmed.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:38:11

Yes. I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah. I just thought that I wouldn't do that because I wouldn't enjoy it. More than anything. Like yes. It wouldn't be wise as well as it not being enjoyable. So wouldn't be good for anybody. So there are people who are less specialized and have more of a general basis, especially more rural areas that see a wider swath that haven't been able to specialize as much, and so they do do more general practice. So it's very possible especially in rural areas that you have somebody who's very generalized and sees young children, older children, adults, and does drug and alcohol as well as doing trauma because they've had to remain very generalized, and they haven't been able to specialize. whereas somebody who's very specialized would remain specialized. So it's not always the case that somebody is very specialized, but you should definitely talk to that. And it depends on your access. because when I came back to Oregon, I remember being asked to be specialized working on diagnostic criteria for selective mutism, and that's where a child doesn't speak in certain environments. And I was shocked at my level of experience, and I had the most experience at the table to be able to do this because I'd worked in an urban area and and and have been more experienced than everyone else at the table that I was at for the whole state of Oregon because it's a more rural area, and there's less opportunity for those experiences. In urban areas, you have much more focused specialties with those things. So all very interesting.

Will Halpin [: 00:39:32

Fair. But even in these cases, right, it's fair to say, like, alright. You're coming with this. This is my limits. This is what I can offer. This is what I can't. Like, I will get consultation. I may have to get consultation with someone or, like, work with someone who has more training. So as long as you're honest about like, okay. I can do some of that, and this is what I would need to support that, but this is also the limit.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:39:52

Exactly. Working in those bounds and being able to support that. That's very helpful. Is there anything that we haven't been able to touch on that you guys feel like is very valuable that we need to make sure that we kinda get back to?

Linh Phan [: 00:40:04

Do we wanna talk about how another aspect of coaching that is different from therapy and that coaching is not regulated?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:11

Yes. Let's talk about that. Linh, perfect.

Linh Phan [: 00:40:16

because that's a really big difference. Right? So there isn't a regulatory body that oversees coaches. Like, anyone can call themselves a coach and, you know, if they're good in sales and marketing and, like, They can get clients like that. Right? So that's a big difference too. It's, like, really important to ask your coaches if you are interested and if you five with the coach if it's important for you to ask about their credentials and stuff like that to keep that in mind because there are some coaches out there who don't even get training.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:40:47

Yeah. And to know if they do that. But so with that because that's a curiosity that honestly don't know the answer to. So I know that if I go to a therapist, their license, their certified, whatever. There's a body that I can go to to make a complaint if they're boundaries or what they do is outside of that. with coaches because I know that there are so, like, with Jacquelyn, she's a certified life coach, and I know that there are some certifying and accrediting bodies within coaching. If I go to a coach that is certified, if if there's something that happens, if there's something outside of boundaries or something concerning or whatever else Is there somebody that holds them accountable? Is that something that it can affect their certification if there's a concern, or is there nobody at your to. Do you have anything about that, Eric?

Eric Bauberger [: 00:41:29

Well, I know that certain certification programs can be accredited through more official governing bodies, for example, there's the ICF, like the International Coaching Foundation. I think the other one's ACC. So those are questions that people looking for coaches could ask. The program I picked I picked because they were accredited, and it was, like, one of the gold standards and same thing for my personal training. anyone could be a personal trainer, and there's all different certs you could get. I personally wanted the one that was underneath that standard, so to speak, that people Even if they don't recognize it, they would have the ability to look into it and get whatever type of verification they would need to feel comfortable about working with that person.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:13

Oh, good. If you do go to somebody that's in that, is there any way to follow through if something goes sideways with your experience?

Eric Bauberger [: 00:42:20

No. Even though I went through my certification program, no one's regulating me. It's really my responsibility to have a clear contract with people. regarding what we're working on, what we're not working on, what we're both accountable for, you know, what's within our scope, what's not within our scope, It really is that ethical responsibility of the coach to make sure that they're driving within their own lane.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:42:44

Well, that's a good point, though. So you guys do actually have, like, contracts that lay out your relationship and responsibilities that you have with your clients then. So that's probably a good thing to look if you're going to work with a coach then to have a clear contract or delineation of your relationship and the responsibilities of that relationship. I think I look for that and ask for that and with a coaching relationship. That's valuable.

Linh Phan [: 00:43:08

So, personally, like, I have a contract that that we both signed, but, like, what goes on within the actual sessions themselves, that's verbal. So that's a verbal contracting that we do before we even begin work together, but then also in the individual

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:43:23

Yes. You know, I like that to have an overall doing that because I even with my podcasting network, like, we signed an agreement of, like, this is what we're doing. This is what we agree too. And this is, like, how many things and everyone has a clear understanding of the relationship. And I like that there's that clear understanding of the relationship with the coaching of just, like, you know, this is our coaching relationship, and this is what we're doing. I think that's valuable. You guys do that, so that's helpful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Well, good. Well, I think this has been, like, a really great overview of what this is. And I think that as we kind of close things up, because we have gone a little bit longer. So I think we're gonna skip over the self maintenance. You guys have to go back and visit the self maintenance from our last episode. So we're gonna skip over the self maintenance for this thing, but I do think with our grit wet, they'd be good for us to kind of recapture what we feel like the most important questions are that people should consider as they're looking to find a coach or a therapist, and that with a coach or therapist, do we have any other ideas? because I mentioned, like, psychology today. Like, you go through your insurance, typically, to look for therapists. and can look at their recommendations if your insurance is a good website to help you find people to ask for recommendations from friends. Psychology today often lets you look through and look at therapists. Do we have any other ideas or suggestions about where to find therapist to you guys?

Will Halpin [: 00:44:38

I mean, if you are any kind of health care system, if you have a primary care provider or anything like that, they should have places to refer you if you come in with mental health issues or behavioral health stuff, so that could be a start point as well.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:44:49

So primary care is a good place to start for referrals as well, excellent. So primary care. And then for looking for coaches, we talked about, I think podcasts are a great way. And when I have coaches on my episodes, like, one of the words I use is coach. So you can actually search through for coaches. And when I do stuff, like, on the Instagram, whatever else I coaching there too so you could search for podcast episodes with coaches in them. So that's one place to look for coaches, searching Google, searching online for coaches, So for our coaches, where are some good places to search for coaches?

Linh Phan [: 00:45:21

There are a lot of directories out there. Directories and also, like, lots of coaching platforms are out there now.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:45:27

Do you have specific ones you'd recommend that you guys are on? because we love you guys, obviously.

Linh Phan [: 00:45:34

I'm not on any of them right now because I'm doing it, like, trying to build my business the hard way. No. But, like, a lot of, like, referrals too. Right? Like, if you know a one coach, they are likely to know a bunch of other coaches who do different things. And so just having conversations with people, like, if you find one coach, you'll find a lot of coaches in my personal experience.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:45:56

Nice. Do you have thoughts, Eric, about good ways to find coaches?

Speaker D [: 00:46:00

No. But the coach that I'm working with now has been wonderful, and I just and to stumble upon her. It was just kinda like one thing, bunch of little breadcrumbs, and then I found her page. I'm like, this is it. But just to be on the search, to be a seeker for that which resonates with you, to have that openness to explore know, there's gonna be so many people on Instagram. There's gonna be people on all the social platforms on YouTube. And like you said, the podcast, I think it's really important to explore, define which schools of thought, and procedures are most resonant with you and to try them out. I think most people give some type of complimentary consultation even if it's only 15 minutes. to explore, find that which is resonant, and take people up on their free experiences and go from there.

Linh Phan [: 00:46:52

And don't feel bad for saying no. Like, don't feel bad for like, not ending up to work with this coach. Right? because so much of it is about the experience and, like, the relationship that you have with them. Like, I've had multiple friends who have gone to therapist and gone to coaches and didn't even like their therapist or coach. And I'm just like, why? How what? Like, so many questions. But, like, I think it's really important that the person that you're working with that you feel a connection

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:47:20

Yes. I 100 percent agree as a trained therapist and as someone who's gone to therapists, and I'm working on finding more of those resources for helpers. It's important that you resonate. that's excellent. And I feel like the question that we found was really important is that, do they have a helper or whatever that might be? And do they believe in the importance of having helpers? because then we felt that was a really important that's when we all nod and agreed to that side. All heads nod for that one. So that's definitely a good one. And for you to have a sense, I feel like when I spoke to folks about the therapist helpers coach conversation that They also didn't know what they were supposed to get out of it as well. So if you have a sense of what you're trying to like, what you're presenting problem situation like what you're trying to solve. And to be able to go in there saying, like, this is what I need help with. Can you help with this? Is this something you help with? It's probably a really good place to start. And then being able to say, like, I also have these things. What are your experience with these things and get specific about their experience and whatever like, they've studied what they studied, like, get real about, not like, oh, yes. I have ADHD, and you've worked with one person who's ADHD. Like, what have you done with ADHD? HD? Who have you helped and what are examples of that? Or what have you studied and what are examples? Like, how intense is your knowledge and how is that gonna actually apply to me type of things to get specific? Are those, like, kind of the highlights of, like, the type of questions and to dig in there on those things a little bit with experiences and background and not to be afraid to ask those things?

Will Halpin [: 00:48:48

Yeah. And then, like, even you said, like, ADHD, like, what therapeutic interventions do you use? Oh, I work with ADHD. What does that mean? Do you use cognitive behavioral therapy? Do you use what kinds of therapies do you use? What do you know about can you refer me to an article about that kind of therapy or is there a place I can go to understand more of what if I did cognitive behavioral therapy with someone with ADHD -- Yes. -- what does that look like?

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:49:49

And then also maybe the question about, like, would you refer me to somebody else if you couldn't help me? I think that that's probably a really good question to ask -- Yes. -- to anyone that you saw, like and from any helper that they should be able to say yes and have a sense of what's outside of if they think they can do everything for you, then they probably aren't the right person for you.

Will Halpin [: 00:49:30

And I would hope that the helper would be the one who would initiate that statement, but it is an important question to ask. I did have one more thing really quick. You said about other places to find therapists. So if you like a particular therapy modality, like, if you were reading about internal family systems and you're like, this is IFS or EMDR or whatever, you're like, oh, I'm really into this. I'm curious about this therapy. There are, like, national certifying bodies that you can go to their websites. And then if they people have been trained at it, you should be able search in the area or search and their names should be listed. So not saying that they definitely will have openings, but you can definitely see who's been trained in that modality through that regulating body. So that's another way to find someone.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:50:10

Yes. And we will and in the episode 32 for IFS, we have that link for IFS the specifically. So that's, like, a place to go back and find that. So this has been so valuable. Thank you all so much for being here. I appreciate all of you and your perspectives in adding so much to our audience. So thank each and every one of you for doing this.

Linh Phan [: 00:50:29

Thank you so much for your time.

Will Halpin [: 00:50:30

My pleasure.

Speaker C [: 00:50:31

Thank you too.

Will Halpin [: 00:50:32

It's great seeing other folks and talking with you.

Shawna Rodrigues [: 00:50:35

Yes. You guys are all valuable. Thank you. Thank you for joining us today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to jump on over to Instagram and follow us @the.grit.show. And if you aren't already following authentic connections podcast network @37by27. You should definitely be doing that as well. Don't forget. You are the only one of you that this world has got, and that means something. I'll be here next Tuesday. I hope you are too.